The subject says it all. Foam? No way. We're using western red cedar clears, for high-end, no corner-cutting patio furniture. And a subset of our production is special orders made from Ipe or Jatoba. Anyone know the best for this? I'm looking at West Systems and Weldwood® Marine Resorcinol Glue. Am I nuts? No experience with either.
We need something that can be used for mitre cut joints, side grain or face grain laminations, and other general uses. 50% of our units are stained with Cabot's Australian Timber Oil [oil based]. Shouldn't matter but thought I'd mention it because we have to avoid shiny, slick spots when you leave residual glue. 2-part is ok but obviously 1-part makes it easier for the workers. [I don't believe Titebond III is worthwhile even though mounting evidence says it is. Just not sold on it. I'm comfortable with a more commercial product].
I would give a stronger consideration to resorcinol over epoxy. While I am sure the boat hulls are a good testament, I have had epoxy 'failure' related to starved joints. Resorcinol has its drawbacks (temperature, toxicity), but is what is holding all that A/C Fir plywood together.
Being woodworkers, tightening clamps is fundamental and we have had countertops and other joints open since we literally squeeze the epoxy out of the joint. Epoxy likes a thick glue line, and this rules it out for appearance in some things.
I understand a recent Fine Woodworking article suggests epoxy as a good mortise and tenon/exterior door glue, but if your joints are proper, there will be little room for a thick glue line.
Go to Weldwood tech for MSDS and exposure recommendations on Resorcinol. Urea and a few other demons. You can also try the link below. It needs heat and wood of the same temp to set correctly. It likes 80F degrees or better.
Epoxy can be made more viscous with thickeners. This will not prevent starved joints, as I understand it. The pressure of 'normal' clamping squeezes the epoxy to a very thin glue line. This is what is needed for most glues, but not epoxy.
I can't artificially or any other way raise the wood temp to 80 degrees, or any degrees. Or can I, without reinventing the wheel?
I actually tested "Bolder Bond" . The relatively new poly glue that foams ~ 40% less than the other poly's. Trouble is certain joints are hard to clean out the foam. Tight spaces. And trying to remove foam, the workers will damage the soft cedar. Then sanding is rq'd. Chasing the tail. A lot of extra work. But beyond this problem B Bond does work. There must be an overall better solution...? Maybe using B Bold on less difficult joints, together with the epoxy on the difficult ones. This would highly minimize the use of epoxy. Just thinking.
I've done my own tests on Western red cedar and found that the polyurethane glues work well. The downside is your joints need to be tight as there is no gap filling strength in the glue. In face in a Fine Woodworking test several years ago the polyurethane glues scored the lowest for joint strength.
I too tested out Titebond 3 and found it to work on WR cedar. However like you I've not made the change.......just not convinced.
We will sometimes use West Systems but the heavy glue line makes for issues if it's not a paint grade project.
So the bottom line for us is to make sure we have good joint/seam work and to use polyurethane. I like the Franklin (Titebond manufacturer) brand.
Well, I decided on TB III. Cleaning up foam is too time-consuming and sometimes removing it will ruin the softwood with who knows what tools. Then sanding over again - chasing your tail. I don't want the labor hating my project. I'm also betting that Franklin would not lie. Especially when you tel 'em it's for production. Do do so would be a very, very high liability for them.
Nothing wrong with TB III, but for the longest outside durability, uv stabilized epoxy with a thick joint (as David as stated well) or resorcinol would provide longer life indeed. The key is that these adhesive have a chemical reaction that will not allow the adhesive to soften with heat or moisture or uv or insects or fungi.
Epoxy thickeners do two things. They thicken the glue to keep it from running out of the joint and they also hold the glue by absorption keeping it all from soaking into the wood. Laminating epoxy cures slowly which gives the wood a lot of time to soak it up. Thickener helps counter that action and keep more glue in the joint.
FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards(return to top)
WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
A valid email return address must be included with each message.
Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
"Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.
You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.
WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.
Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).
Libel: Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.
Improper Decorum: Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).
Advertising: The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).
Repeated Forum Abuse:
Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.
There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).
The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)
Forum Posting Form Guidelines
The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines
Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
Thread Related File Uploads
Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .FLV .MP4 (Image Upload Tips) If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
The editors, writers, and staff at WOODWEB try to promote safe practices.
What is safe for one woodworker under certain conditions may not be safe
for others in different circumstances. Readers should undertake the use
of materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB after considerate evaluation,
and at their own risk.