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Subject: Re: Exterior bench of stainless steel and wood

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Message Thread:

Exterior bench of stainless steel and wood

5/12/14       
Paul Member

I have a project designed by an architect that calls for glued up bench tops and bottoms that are sandwiching 3/16" stainless steel, bolted from the bottom through the stainless into the top. The tops are a finished size of 2" thick by random widths and lengths. The bottoms are 1' thick and mimic the tops widths and lengths. There are 10 tops and 10 bottoms. The steel and wood will be in direct contact to one another. The material I suggested was Black Locust but may end up being White Oak due to time constraints. No exotic material can be used. No stain just a marine grade spar urethane. My biggest concern is movement. I have already stated that the bolt holes in the stainless will need to be a minimum of a 1/16" larger then the bolts. I'm concerned that the stainless may act as a heating element but haven't received information about what the exposure will be. Should their be a barrier between the metal and wood? This will be installed in San Francisco. Again movement is my biggest concern. Input is greatly appreciated.

5/13/14       #2: Exterior bench of stainless steel a ...
David R Sochar Member

I believe you are asking about solid wood, 1" thick glued for width and then placed on either side of 3/16" Stainless sheet. You don't mention interior or exterior use.

If my interpretation is correct, you can use the Shrinkulator (on this site) to determine the wood movement and size the holes appropriately. But if the wood is too wide - 6" or more? - then any bond to the Stainless will cause problems. The stainless will resist movement (successfully) and the wood will move (and will also win).

I suggest a conversation with the designer to voice concerns over wood movement, and have at least 2 solutions ready to offer. It is one thing to say "no", and another to say "here are some alternates that will work".

5/13/14       #3: Exterior bench of stainless steel a ...
Paul Member

The wood will be solid material, glued up 2" thick and 1" thick. The smallest width is 8" the largest is 16".

This will be used as an outdoor structure.

I have attached part of the drawing. It's looking straight on, front view.


View higher quality, full size image (1080 X 594)

5/13/14       #4: Exterior bench of stainless steel a ...
rich c.

Definitely oversized holes, but I would also be concerned about water wicking under the wood and keeping the back of the wood soaking wet and the top getting heated by the sun. I would suggest stainless washers between the top wood seat, and the stainless to allow air circulation. I'd use much bigger holes than your suggested 1/16" oversize. Get one screw off center in the hole, and the next screw off center the other way, and you've locked it in place.

5/14/14       #5: Exterior bench of stainless steel a ...
mark

So, I'm guessing (since it's not called out on the drawing) that the serpentine shape is stainless plate. You don't really have any issues with movement as long as you allow for it, i.e. slotted holes. The moisture issue is more pressing (esp. if the plate is solid.) Redesign to manage the moisture by assuming that it has to dry by gravity from a fully immersed condition. Compare to a vertical board to judge how well the design will hold up.
You might do better with WRC or reclaimed redwood for SanFran: is oak from the midwest exotic?
Dolphinite is a marine bedding compound that might be of some use to you. It won't, however, prevent moisture intrusion with the design as is.

5/14/14       #6: Exterior bench of stainless steel a ...
Adam

This thing would be ok as an interior decoration. Outside it is not a great idea.

Movement should be the least of your concerns. That is easily overcome by slotting the stainless, allowing 1/8" of movement in either direction. We figure 1/8" per foot of movement. 1/16" clearance hole would be used anticipating no movement.

The biggest concern as others have noted is the potential for moisture entrapment between the stainless and the wood. It is akin to a sponge sitting in a stainless sink. Not a great idea.

You need to create a permanent barrier between the two materials. I think a poly adhesive sealant that allows movement would be your best bet. 3M 5200(permenant and less movement) has been replaced by Sikaflex 291 marine adhesive sealant as a bedding compound. It has plenty of movement and is removable. We bed most marine fittings with this stuff.

I would expect your wood panels to be okay with the sealant based on their widths. A nice 3/8" bead around the perimeter and around each hole would be adequate. 100% coverage is not necessary.

I would be inclined to seal the bottom(not top) of the panels with epoxy to completely prevent water intrusion. Varnish over the top and sides.

I would also write a disclaimer accepting limited warrenty based on a poor design that is susceptible to failure. It's not your idea; therefore, it shouldn't be your problem.

SikaFlex Marine Adhesive Sealant

5/14/14       #7: Exterior bench of stainless steel a ...
Jim Lewis

Sorry, but I find the drawing more confusing than helpful. This is labeled front view, what is the side/ top view or perspective? I'm asking because you talk about stainless sheet, not strips, which I would have assumed for a bench. It makes a big difference in detailing.

Are the dimensions correct? Three screws 1' oc on a 4 x 8 panel? Is that 4" x 8" or 48" x 96", because something seems mislabeled.

5/15/14       #8: Exterior bench of stainless steel a ...
David R Sochar Member

I agree - that is one vague drawing. I have no idea of what is required. Perhaps if you shared the rest of the drawings or any further details, you could get better responses.

I also agree that it just doesn't sound right - wood fixed to metal, outside.

I like Adam's solutions, but the epoxy coating, while a good barrier, will make for an unbalanced panel - one side getting wet and dried, with the underside stable.

But that mat be the least of your worries, from what I can tell.

5/15/14       #9: Exterior bench of stainless steel a ...
Jim Lewis

And I agree with David about the finish. I think it will only cause trouble.

My instinct would be to break up the panels into slats and leave them unfinished, but then I'm talking construction. Sounds like the architect has different ideas about the finished look.

5/15/14       #10: Exterior bench of stainless steel a ...
Paul Member

Thanks all for your help.

I gave the project head some suggestions and he has decided to use them all to minimize failure to the wood.

Bolt holes in the stainless sheet will be a 1/2" larger than the bolts.

Spacers, either stainless or plastic will be used to keep the wood out of contact with stainless sheet.

Even with the changes being added to the design he agreed that I should not be responsible if the wood bench seats fail.
This will be in writing.

Paul

5/15/14       #11: Exterior bench of stainless steel a ...
rich c.

I don't often play well on the hobbiest sites, dealing with guys with lots of opinions and no experience. Nice to know I might have gotten one right!

5/15/14       #12: Exterior bench of stainless steel a ...
Adam

Congrats Paul!

You must have found a gem of an Architect.

8/26/14       #13: Exterior bench of stainless steel a ...
Rich Enders

A frequently overlooked item is that all stainless steels are not created equal. Since you and the architect will both want this to look good down the road, and since there is an ocean nearby, type 316 SS is called for. It is expensive, but the other SS's will not hold up.

 

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