|
||||
| Home » Forums » Architectural Woodworking » Message | Login | |||
|
||||
|
You are not logged in. Consider these WOODWEB Member advantages:
Glueing white oak treads to metal
2/18  0 --  | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
|
Please see pic.
Whatcha think?
View higher quality, full size image (1000 X 750)
|
|
|
[X]
Member's Business Categories:
Architectural Millwork - Custom Millwork Cabinets - Kitchen & Bath Cabinets  Member |
PL premium will do the trick just fine. Has enough dry flex to accomodate shink and swell. Make sure to finish the underside of the tread first with something to balance moisture.
|
|
|
|
Why not shoot some screws from underneath, with larger holes in the back for wood movement. What are you going to do on the landings? That's a big panel, and lots more movement. If I wanted to glue them, I'd use silicone adhesive, but you will have to keep the trades off them for quite a while.
|
|
|
|
I thought pl polyurethane adhesive would be fine. As for the landings, the architect would like them to be as seamless as the treads....like a table top. Of course my concern is warping/cracking if just using construction adhesive. For that matter even if the metal fabricator makes slotted holes for me, I'm still concerned about the flatness of it all as this isn't a table top.
|
|
|
Member |
The old stair guys around here are wincing in silence. They would probably advise against it. There is no precedent for this, so there is probably a reason. I'd decline in favor of easier ways to make a living.
A good strategy that has been used for centuries is to rabbet and tongue the risers and treads together so the tread nose is fixed, but the tread can expand and contract under the rabbet at the riser. Skirt boards are also made to allow for holding a tread in place, but allowing some movement. Wood will move, there is no stopping it without repercussions.
I have no idea what PL premium is, but if it is 'flexible' then it would be likely to fail - later if not sooner.
|
|
|
[X]
View Member Profile
Name: Jim Baldwin Company: 18th Century Handrail Phone: 951 662 6840 Location: UT
Project Gallery Listings: (6)
Member's Business Categories:
Architectural Millwork - Lathe Turning Architectural Millwork - Stairs and Balustrades Member |
Simply gluing finished materials directly to steel is not recommended. If you must then I suggest edge-glued quarter-sawn white oak treads and landing platforms. These are set down in a bedding of thickened epoxy, with all the bottom surfaces being first coated in an epoxy sealer.
Regular construction adhesives alone will not prevent solid treads from working lose and separating from underlying steel plate or sheet metal pans.
I've overlay-ed a lot of steel stairs with finished materials and the general approach is to first wrap and cover them entirely with sub-plywood. This is glued, screwed and shot down anyway we can and until we don't see any metal. Then the finished treads and risers are installed just like any other overlayment job.
BTW; Figuring out how to do this should not be your job. You can offer suggestions along with shop drawing proposals but all details should be approved in writing by the architect. In fact, he should be the one providing you with plan details and specifications. Your job is to do the work "as specified".
To do otherwise is to be wholly liable for whatever you've elected to do. Even the selection of glue should not be your call.
|
|
|
|
Jim,
What happens at the ground floor to the first tread or when you get to the next floor and the flooring is a different thickness than that being added to the treads and landings and the stairs are already in?
I guess its the same issue for the current plan. If the metal stair guy didn't know the total tread thickness when the stars were made I guess there is trouble in River City.
A-
|
|
|
[X]
View Member Profile
Name: Jim Baldwin Company: 18th Century Handrail Phone: 951 662 6840 Location: UT
Project Gallery Listings: (6)
Member's Business Categories:
Architectural Millwork - Lathe Turning Architectural Millwork - Stairs and Balustrades Member |
Good question Alan and the answer dictates what can and can't be done. We have 3/8" leeway, no more no less (within a single flight of stairs).
Stairs are designed from finish floor to finish floor and these are facts which need to be predetermined in the planing stage.
I assume they've planned for their added steps and platforms as well as the upper threshold. The answer then may be to reduce the thickness of the finished flooring to allow for a sub-plywood surface. A full size nosing can be part of the leading edge.
Either way, I'd be asking (insisting) that the architect spell it out. Whatever he says, goes.
|
|
|
|
Construction adhesive even the poly stuff dry hard. The poly stuff is more adhesive.
However you are not bonding ply down to joists. Steel and wood are quite different materials. I would choose an elastomeric adhesive that has a tenacious adhesion to any material and remains flexible forever.
3m 5200
I would saw relief slots on the bottom of the treads and landings this should (in theory) help with warping.
I agree with Adam, in that 3M5200 would be a good option. However, it, or any flexible product needs to have a thick layer, to allow the wood to move when it needs to move.
The only way to ever get it off, would be to chew it off from above.
Well, I declined the job. Too many question marks and times are great as far as being able to choose m work. The architect did in fact spec out "lords" epoxy 322/38? Some numbers I can't recall for attaching the treads AND landings to metal. The treads are to be 1.25 thick which die into the wall with a fry regret reveal aluminum molding (another uncharted course for me)
Chris,
You will not regret your decision to not do a job. In retrospect you will be thankful. Most of us would lose a bit of sleep over that project...always wondering when it would start creaking or cracking.
Lords Epoxy
I don't think I have ever regretted turning down a job that has too many of those unknowns in it. You did the right thing, and you will be free to concentrate on other work that will turn a profit with less headache. I like a challenge, but I also like it digestible.
I might suggest you go back to the Architect and ask for 20 minutes of his time. Explain why you turned down the job, and ask him to give you a call for some free consult next time he is faced with detailing any sort of millwork (you like/want to do). This will create a favorable impression of your shop and your willingness to make his projects better.
Thanks. Good advice David. I am in fact having a "getting to know you" meeting with the architect this week. It'll be an ideal time offer my input for his future projects. Thanks again, and yes I am already breathing a sigh of relief (usually about 3 in the morning when I wake up thinking I forgot to dot an "i")
2/20
Forum threads this member is participating in:
Architectural Woodworking Forum
Re: Glueing white oak treads to metal
: 02/20
Re: Curved back bench seat
: 05/07
Business Forum
Re: Moving into bigger space
: 02/20
Re: Taking over a business
: 02/23
training in
: 03/06
Re: training in
: 03/08
Re: Charge tax or not?
: 03/08
Re: Charge tax or not?
: 03/09
fighting for your business
: 07/19
Re: fighting for your business
: 07/27
Re: fighting for your business
: 07/28
Re: fighting for your business
: 07/28
Furniture Forum
Re: glue creep
: 07/24
Re: Failed glue joint
: 07/28
Cabinet and Millwork Installation Forum
pull out sutting boards
: 04/28
Re: pull out sutting boards
: 04/30
Walnut dining table
: 01/22/10
Small Round Occasional Table
: 04/15/10
Carved Mahogany Doors
: 11/25/13
Accessories and Gifts - General
Cabinets - General
Furniture - Custom Furniture
Furniture - General
Woodworking - General
Member
As for expansion/contraction, how about the skirt board covering the excess?
Orientation will ply a part as well as moisture content and the environment of the building itself.
I would use a siliconized adhesive that will allow the treads and landing to "float" but what happens if they need to be removed at some point?
Chaim
2/20
2/21
Soo happy the planets have shifted and work is going strong again. Just bought my first little edgebander today!! An edgemaster with glue pot.
2/21
2/22
Member
2/24
0 --
Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Other Resources | Site Map
Buy and Sell Exchanges
Job Opportunities and Services Exchange
Employment opportunities and services within the woodworking industry
Lumber Exchange
A worldwide buy/sell exchange for lumber and wood products
Machinery Exchange
A worldwide buyer and seller exchange for woodworking machinery and equipment.
Classified Ad Exchange
Classified advertising for the woodworking industry (for advertisements that do not include machinery, lumber products and employment listings)
Forums
Adhesives Forum
Discussing topics related to adhesives within the woodworking industry
Architectural Woodworking Forum
Discussing quality standards and production of architectural wood products
Business and Management Forum
A forum for the discussion of business topics: from sales and marketing to dealing with difficult customers.
Cabinet and Millwork Installation Forum
Discussing all aspects of installation issues encountered by cabinet and millwork installers.
Cabinetmaking Forum
Discussing 32mm and face frame cabinet construction including fabrication, casegoods design, and installation.
CAD Forum
Shedding light on the all-too-often shadowy world of CAD.
CNC Forum
Discussing CNC (computer numerically controlled) woodworking equipment, software, and automated product manufacturing.
Dust Collection, Safety and Plant Operation Forum
Discussing topics related to maintaining a safe and productive working environment.
Professional Finishing Forum
Finishing issues for the production environment
Forestry Forum
The science and art of forest cultivation and timber management, planting, surveying, tree diseases, silviculture and timber harvesting
Professional Furniture Making Forum
Helping professional furniture makers improve quality, save time, and increase profits
Laminating and Solid Surfacing Forum
Issues related to laminating and solid surface materials and processes
Commercial Kiln Drying Forum
Discussions covering issues faced be commercial drying operations that process at least 750,000 bd. ft. of lumber per year
Sawing and Drying Forum
Discussing topics related to primary processing and drying of lumber
Solid Wood Machining Forum
Discussing topics related to the machining of solid wood
Value Added Wood Products Forum
Learn how to improve your output, find new markets, and boost sales of your lumber products
Veneer Forum
Discussing topics related to veneer processing, manufacturing, and fabrication
WOODnetWORK
An electronic discussion group for woodworkers throughout the world
Galleries
Project Gallery
Where professional woodworkers can post examples of their work
Sawmill Gallery
Professional primary processing companies display and describe their sawmill facilities
Shop Gallery
Professional woodworkers display and describe their shop facilities, products and equipment
Shopbuilt Equipment Gallery
Professional woodworker's jigs, rigs, and shopbuilt equipment
Other Resources
Industry News
Late-breaking news from all sectors of the wood industry
Video Library
Index of industrial woodworking related digital videos on the web
Auctions, Sales and Special Offers
Advertisers offering woodworkers discounted prices on good and services, and announcements of upcoming auctions
FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)
(return to top).
Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.
You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.
WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.
Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).
Libel: Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.
Improper Decorum: Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).
Advertising: The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).
Repeated Forum Abuse:
Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.
There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).
The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)
Forum Posting Form Guidelines
Your Name
The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
Your Website
Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
E-Mail Address
Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
Subject
Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines
Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
Thread Related File Uploads
Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .FLV .MP4 (Image Upload Tips) If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
Refer a Friend || Read
This Important Information || Site
Map || Privacy Policy || Site User Agreement
Letters, questions or comments?
E-Mail us and let us know what you think. Be sure to review our Frequently Asked Questions page.
Contact us to discuss advertising or to report problems with this site.
To report a problem, send an e-mail to our Webmaster
Copyright © 1996-2017 - WOODWEB ® Inc.
All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced in
any manner without permission of the Editor.
Review WOODWEB's Copyright Policy.
The editors, writers, and staff at WOODWEB try to promote safe practices.
What is safe for one woodworker under certain conditions may not be safe
for others in different circumstances. Readers should undertake the use
of materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB after considerate evaluation,
and at their own risk.
WOODWEB, Inc.
335 Bedell Road
Montrose, PA 18801
Contact WOODWEB
