Architectural Woodworking

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

quarter or rift sawn

9/30/14       
Dan

Website: http://www.innerwood.com

we have a debate going on about the veneer on a door and I wondered if some of you could weigh in with your expert opinions. The door is supposed to be quartersawn White Oak and I think this is rift sawn Red Oak. The door has a clear finish on it no stain. The lumber I show on the door is White Oak; the long piece is unfinished and the small piece has a clear lacquer finish. thanks for your comments. Dan

Click the link below to download the file included with this post.

quarter_or_rift_sawn.pdf



Click the link below to download the file included with this post.

rift_or_quarter_sawn.pdf



Click the link below to download the file included with this post.

clear_finish_on_both_pieces.pdf

9/30/14       #2: quarter or rift sawn ...
jim

Rift White

9/30/14       #3: quarter or rift sawn ...
Adam

Its definitely rift. The lighting in the pics makes it hard to see anything else other than minor color. I would expect it to be darker if it were red oak.

qtr white is one of my favorite woods. Rift sawn red is one of my least. It reminds me of a Formica laminate.

9/30/14       #4: quarter or rift sawn ...
Gene Wengert-WoodDoc

There are three choices---

flatsawn (also called flat grain and plain sawn)

rift sawn

quartersawn

For hardwoods without ray fleck (ray fleck is the various bands you see on the third photo on the right side), one might define the various grain patterns by the angle that the annual rings make wight he faces of the piece. One common definition is 75 to 90 degrees is quartersawn, 45 to 75 is riftsawn, and 0 to 45 i flatsawn. Of course, one piece can have different angles and so might have two different grain patterns and so then what do you call it? Then, some people think that there are only two grains---flat and quarter, with 0-45 and 45-90 being the division.

With lumber that has ray fleck, however, the widely understood definition is that--
quartersawn shows the ray fleck pattern quite clearly,

riftsawn shows the straight lines of the growth rings, rather than the cathedral grain pattern of flatsawn, but has no fleck.

flatsawn has the annual rings making a cathedral or "V" shaped pattern.

Further, when grading lumber, the clear area used to establish the grade, if quartersawn, must show the fleck on 80% of the area (or similar).

Regarding the pictures: The first one is 100% rift. I cannot tell if it is red or white. The second one, the light colored piece is 100% quartersawn. The third one has quartersawn on the right half, and some on the top left, with the bottom left being more rift (no ray fleck).

The rays in white oak tend to be about 1-1/2" high while red oak are often 3/4" or shorter. The height of these rays in the pictures is quite short, so I would guess that they are red oak, but ray size alone is not the best guide. The best guide is the frequency of the large pores within each growth ring. Note that not all white oaks have plugged (or occluded) cells. Not all white oaks are pale in color and not all red oaks are reddish.

Someone buying quartersawn or quarter grain veneer would have the expectation of seeing the ray flecks on 80 to 90% of the faces.

9/30/14       #5: quarter or rift sawn ...
chris

Definitely Rift. Anyone claiming this is quarter sawn is either a rookie or a swindler. Whether it is white or red oak is more difficult to tell.

10/1/14       #6: quarter or rift sawn ...
John S  Member

It certainly has the "rift look", but I believe it is actually what are called "bastard quarters". It is a very common practice in the veneer industry to cut the "quarters" off the sides of plain sliced veneer when you get down into the middle of the flitch and there are too many knots/defects to use it as A or B grade plain sliced. I see the "bastard quarter look" in that door. Most people can't tell the difference, but I have seen "bastard quarters" used for many years, in thousands of faces, and I see very subtle characteristics that point to it. So I am reasonably sure it is neither true rift nor true quarters.

I'm not going to get into the whole supplier/customer communication thing on ordering veneer, but next time specify "heavy flake" in your quarters and whether it is true quarters or bastard quarters, the veneer company will know what you are looking for and can provide that (or should). Just remember that true quarters are a more expensive product and you will pay a little more for them.

10/1/14       #7: quarter or rift sawn ...
John S  Member

Almost forgot ... it's White Oak.

10/1/14       #8: quarter or rift sawn ...
Larry

I'll go with Gene on this one. 1. Rift, 2. Qtr, 3. both.
There can be no line in the sand when it comes to definitions of this sort. Each slice will be slightly different than the next one. If you took half a log and simply sliced it from the center out, the first slice would likely always pass as qtr, transitioning to rift then to flat. @ what point everyone would agree the transition appears probably varies a lot.

Red or white? Get out your microscope.

10/1/14       #9: quarter or rift sawn ...
Dan

Thank you, I very much appreciate the responses to this post and feel that we have clearly settled the question that the door is rift sawn. I know that determining if it is Red or White Oak is much more exacting and if this had been quartersawn the flake size may have helped determine this. This project has a clear finish on all of the wood so we will have to specify the white range of White Oak.

This is one of five White Oak jobs going through the shop right now and it has been a challenge to be so specific on the veneer selection and have learned to make NO assumptions.

These threads are certainly a wealth of knowledge and experience.

Thanks again, Dan

10/1/14       #10: quarter or rift sawn ...
Gene Wengert-WoodDoc

Ang Schramm in his book "Hardwood Plywood and Face Veneer" restricts (p. 36) the term "bastard quarters" to a specific case when slicing veneer from near the center of the log with juvenile wood in the center of the veneer sheet which is clipped away, leaving two narrow pieces. If they show ray fleck or flake, they are sold as quarter grain. If there is no fleck or flake, then rift.

However, quarter and rift can be obtained with other slicing methods and then would not be called "bastard quarters." Again, the distinction between quarter and rift is the ray fleck or ray flake pattern.

You can tell the difference between red and white oak using sodium nitrite 5% in water. If the color is dark, then white oak. Works on wet or dry, warm or cold, and is 100%. Sodium nitrite can be made by the local high school chemistry teacher or even a pharmacist, or bought on EBAY, but do not keep an unlabeled bottle around at the workplace--OSHA rule. Just make enough for the present use.

Red vs white technical article

10/2/14       #11: quarter or rift sawn ...
John S  Member

Exactly correct, Gene. The straight grain on either side of plain sliced veneer are called the "quarters" and when removed from the heart deep in the log, they are called "bastard quarters". If they have no flake, the veneer company should sell them as "rift", with flake as "quarters".

The door company probably didn't specify (or know?) that their customer wanted heavy flake in the quarters (it can be specified in light, medium and heavy flake) and if their veneer face buyer didn't know and went with the cheapest available "quartered" face (to achieve a lower cost), they would get "light", or in this case, virtually none, which shouldn't happen, agreed.

To me this is entirely a case of mis-communication. An order to a veneer company specifying "quartered White Oak" only communicates half of the spec, it doesn't address the most important characteristic in this case, that the end customer expected "heavy flake". That's not an automatic, because most customers (in my 40 years of experience) don't want heavy flake (because of glue bleed-thru, sander tear-out and finishing issues, aside from aesthetics).

What I am getting at is that if you want specific characteristics in your veneer, you need to communicate that clearly in your order. I'm not trying to criticize anyone, people don't know what they don't know and that probably applies to
all parties in this case. The customer expected one thing, the door company wanted to give them the best possible price and therefore veneer company went with the lowest cost veneer, which in both rift and quartered is always "bastard quarters". Should there have been flake in that quartered face, yes absolutely, but is it reasonable to expect the veneer company to utilize heavy flake without some communication of that fact, not really, again most customers don't want that effect, especially in doors (as opposed to say fine furniture).

There are a few of us "old timers" around yet, and we know and understand the questions that need to be asked in order to give the end customer what they really want. Just trying to do my part in educating the next generation of veneer specifiers. Remember that every single veneer face ever made is different from every other face, it's virtually impossible that two faces are "identical". So to expect to get exactly the "look" you want, you need to be very specific in communicating your expectations.


Post a Response
  • Notify me of responses to this thread
  • Subscribe to email updates on this Forum
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)