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Subject: Re: Business owners, managers, fellow woodworkers...What am I worth?

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Message Thread:

Business owners, managers, fellow woodworkers...What am I worth?

2/11/15       
Mel Member

Hello All,

I must admit that I have joined this site specifically to ask this question. I need some numbers/good hard data! Thanks in advance to anyone that answers.

I have joined the cabinet making industry in the last few years. I have a very varied background--theatre settups, live event infrastructure, scaffolding, service industry, warranties, international manufacturing logistics. I have been a contractor, a manager, a laborer, a student.

I have been in the cabinet making industry for two yeasr now. I have completed the joinery program at school. I am currently employed in a cabinet shop in their specialties department, which deals with custom builds--anything outside of boxes, drawers and doors. Mantles, benches, hood boxes, fancy space fillers, etc.

I know that i am performing at the same pace as my other coworker that has been there for 6 years.

Here comes the question:

What would you pay an employee like me in your shop? And if you don't mind adding what the minimum wage is in your area... that way I could get a good idea of value independant of location.

Thanks so much--I truely appreciate any feedback :)

Cheers,

Mel

2/11/15       #2: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Michael Mezalick

Website: http://www.carveddetails.com

I would suggest adding a portfolio of your work when asking what you are worth.
As they say, talk is cheap...maybe not in your case, but there needs to be more to look at than just taking your word for it.
As an employer, I would not hire someone without more ,,,,shall we say...proof of abilities.
Michael

2/11/15       #3: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Jim Member

Your worth in dollars is whatever you can get someone to pay you.

Look at professional sports. An athletes prices is determined by whatever someone will pay. Some will pay more than others, some less than others but overall it is whatever the best deal is for the player. Some take less money because of other intangibles such as team, location, opportunity, etc. and others just want the most money.

So your worth is variable depending upon the situation.

If you are angling to get more money because you feel that you are as good as the senior employee, that is something that should be discussed with your manager / owner. Or look for work elsewhere where you feel you would be more fairly compensated.

2/11/15       #4: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Nick Cook Member

Website: http://www.cedarrivercabinetry.com

I would start you at 15/hour. Then I would put you through a period of evaluation. After that I would explain to you that your wage is dependent on the value you bring to the business. Value is so much more than technical ability. For example, reliability, attitude, innovation, maybe even an ability to raise the level of enthusiasm in your co-workers. How about the ability to identify and adopt duties that are currently being performed by superiors so they can do other things.
I have two such employees. I pay them close to 30/hour.

2/11/15       #5: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Paul Downs

I wrote about this a couple of years ago - see link below. I hope you find it helpful.

My Pay Scale (from 2013)

2/11/15       #6: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Cabmaker

Paul,

That is a great article. I miss your blog.

When is your book coming out?

2/11/15       #7: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Mel Member

Thanks very much folks, this is very helpful.
If I get enough data I will share trends in relation to minimum wage of different areas... I nerd out like that :)

As for the fellow that asked for pics, fair enough. Here are a few... I do have more that would require a bit of hunting.The first two are hood boxes, one maple, one mdf, and the last one a white oak bench (I did not do the paint job on that last one)


View higher quality, full size image (2448 X 3264)


View higher quality, full size image (2448 X 3264)


View higher quality, full size image (3264 X 2448)

2/12/15       #8: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Cabmaker

My next question would be "How long did they take you to make?".

Since you are trying to establish what you are worth per hour it would be important to know how many dollars of production you can generate per hour. Another relevant question would be how much of the engineering did you do.

I might also want to know what kind of equipment you had to work with.

2/12/15       #9: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Paul Downs

@ Cabmaker: I miss the blog, too. As for the book, I'm finishing the editing right now. Publication is scheduled for August. If the mods will let me, I'll post here when it's available.

Thanks for asking!

2/12/15       #10: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Pat Gelbert

$22/hr for a bench guy.

2/12/15       #11: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Mel Member

Valid questions, cabmaker.

--How long did they take:

The hood boxes about a day, the bench a day and a half. But that said it does come with a lot of interuptions as I do a large amount of repairs, returns and wrap-up items. I'll be paying attention next time for exact amount of hours--that is good info to have indeed.

-how much of the engineering did you do:

The hood boxes are pretty generic--there are layouts, and new jobs come with varying dimensions. I use those to generate my cut lists. As for the funky angled hood box, those angles at the front plate are all me and a table saw.

-What kind of equipment you had to work with:

Jointer, planer, table saw, thickness sander, belt sander, compound mitre saw, edge bander, band saw, router.

More complex machinery use involved 11 degree upright cut for plinthes on the table saw and resawing of stock using table saw and band saw for my 1/4 inch column detailing. I would also say that jointing the oak for the bench was also a little interesting as it is a little more than 10 feet long, bent, bowed and heavy as he...something heavy.

Further information:
I start every workday by setting up the environment for our section. I clear the finished/ about to be finished products that got wheeled in the way of the machinery by the trucker in early morning. I sort the cutoff keeper stock. When needed I do the blade changing, the saw alignments, fence adjustments, etc and am spending my evenings reading about machinery so i can take it a step further. I do repairs, resandings and anything the paint shop needs--I actively intercept them on the way to my section forman to take it off his hands so he can do the more important things he is so good at doing.

2/12/15       #12: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Mel Member

forgot panel saw in machinery used list.

2/12/15       #13: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Cabmaker

Mel,

You sound like the kind of guy any company would want to hire. You seem to be alert for opportunity and can recognize when things need to be done. Your time for fabrication is also pretty good. Building a bench like that with a small jointer in 1 1/2 days is pretty quick.

In my shop you would probably earn $22 - $25 per hour if you could build with minimum management and minimal backpedaling. A lot of times guys seem to be fast but you have to regularly go back each week and re-build something they put together.

As a rule of thumb I think you are worth about 25 - 30% of what your work can be sold for. Materials are going to run about the same. This leaves 40% - 50% to buy the materials, pay the overhead, assume risk for the fixed bid (the work your buddy screwed up and had to be rebuilt), and give a salary and/or profit to the owners.

If you can consistently push $800 out the door every day you are worth $25 per hour + a bonus if you consistently improve on this.

The problem in this industry is it peaks at $25 per hour. A young guy can get to that plateau pretty quickly and life is good for as long as he is making as much or money as any of his friends. The problem comes when he gets a new gang of friends or his wife wants to stay home with the kid. In my neck of the woods there are customers with wheelbarrows full of money but not enough cabinetmakers that want to step up and assist with management.

The real bottleneck in this industry is the lack of professional management. When the shit hits the fan and a project actually now has to wrap up your crew will finally break out a piece of paper and make a punch list. If you could get them to create that list at the beginning of the job we would be talking about $35 - $40 per hour.

My recommendation would be for you to stay the course and keep looking out for the company's interest. These efforts will be recognized and the money will flow.

2/12/15       #14: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Mel Member

Cabmaker, that's some real meat and potatoes to sink my teeth into. Nice and quantifiable.

I need to pay some close attention to my production in exact numbers/time before I even think about asking anyone for anything.

Its funny but i can't even imagine just sitting down and saying something along of the lines of "please sir pay me more". I need some sort of a reasoning/ personal amunition. I need to be sure without a shadow of a doubt that I deserve what I'm asking for.

Thanks guys, keep it coming!

2/12/15       #15: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Cabmaker

Mel,

Another thing to remember is that it pays to be flexible, both in your expectations and your skill set.

Right now the economy is purring along and you actually feel comfortable about sticking your head out of the foxhole to ask about a bigger pieces of the pie. You would have even laughed at yourself if you were asking these questions four years ago. Those of us who have been in the business for very long understand that these things run in cycles.

I cannot remember a boom that lasted more than 3-4 years. We're about a year into this one and, if history repeats itself, we have maybe another election cycle to ride out. Have a plan for how you fit into the program when the economy dips. It's okay to ask for more money if you can produce commensurately more money. Usually this requires investing in your personal skill set. Most occupations that pay decent money also require ongoing continuous education. Too many people think they can graduate from high school and trade on what they (didn't) learn for the rest of a working career.

There is a lot of opportunity for woodworkers if you seek it out. Learn how to make yourself useful. Learn how to run a video camera and make training movies for your company or your company's customers. Learn how to draw in sketch up or automate a cutlist or a task list. Learn how to update a website. These are all skills that are important to your customer. As soon as you figure out it's THEIR birthday that's important you will start making more money.

2/13/15       #16: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Mel Member

Cabmaker,

I'm thrilled to see that some business owners see that. I can;t think of anything more pleasant than occasional spurts of academia. I think it refreshes your self and that you end up bringing that to other people around you in your workplace.

I would like to ask you: have you heard of industrial design? I've been eye balling the program. I think it is very applicable to cabinetry and my intuition leads me to think it would be a heck of a leg up in regards to efficient production. Any thoughts?

2/13/15       #17: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
David R Sochar Member

Mel - You might also try to talk to your employer about what he would like to see you do to improve your lot/the company's lot? A good time for general exchange about what you might think about for the future. Let him talk - you will do better listening for this first exchange.

While you may strive to improve your cabinetmaking skills and knowledge (always worthwhile), your boss may be stressing about finding a CNC programmer, or a estimator or ? That may or may not be areas you wish to enter, but at least you both will then know what the other is looking for in the relationship.

2/14/15       #18: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Mel Member

Okay David, I full on took your advice today and had that talk. Found out that our department, specialties, which is the owner;s pride and joy, is causing him headaches. The dilemma-- we do full on hard wood custom awesome shit (to describe it in laymans terms) but we are apparently a bit on the painfully slow side... Which begs the question for the owner--do I get the preorder china crap, and cut losses, but be an average joe amongst other cabinet shops ordering from the same places, or do I maintain my high status woodworking by operating this artsy department at a bit of a marginal profit for continued business?

Damn valid question if you ask me. I love this place and love a well oiled machine--so I definitely want to figure out what it is we could do to step up the pace. Any ideas what I should be focusing on?

Thanks again immensely, btw--this is one heck of a high quality free coaching session. Very motivation pumping :)

2/14/15       #19: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Jim Member

The boss states that your group in a bit on the slow side. My first thought is that why is this news to you? If your department is not working up to the standard, you should be told about it. Can't change to improve unless you know you need to.

You stated that when building the hood, that you were doing other repairs and such during the time of working on the hood. My suggestion is to have all employees of your department keep track of their time working on a specific job and how much time doing the repairs and such that you mentioned. I would also suggest asking the boss when you start a new project, how much time is he expecting this to take. By tracking your time, you can show how much time was spent on the project and how much time else where. Discussed in another posting was the use of the Toggl Timer app on your smart phone. If you have a smart phone, this app is really good at keeping track of time of jobs and can work for all the people in your group. If your time for the project is over the time he expects, you need to discuss this with him. Maybe what he thinks is slow, is not. Maybe he is underbidding the time that it will take. Maybe he knows of a different more efficient way to get it done. I would also look at your work station to see if improvements could be made to make it easier to the job.

If you take on this challenge and work to solve the problem, you have a good chance at becoming a lead person. At least, I would think you would be good for it. Taking the initiative to solve this problem through looking for solutions can only help you in your career path.

2/14/15       #20: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
David R Sochar Member

Mel - You have now gotten a bit of insight. First, as far as an artsy operation squeaking by, I can relate. I've been at it for 25 years and while I could do it no other way, it is not always the easiest path.

As for you, the next thing to do is to track time. You want to track the time for an entire project, and do so for every project. If you do a lot of administrative work - dumping scrap, delivery, mowing the grass, set up a separate category for that. The idea is to get your 40 hr work week to align with the times on the projects you work on. Mock up a form or two on your computer and print the blanks out for use at the bench. Add time every day, with a synopsis of what you did. Let you boss you are doing this, but be sure he knows it is not to prove anyone wrong, embarrass or cause problems - purely for your own enlightenment - and the company's enlightenment if they would like. Learn to organize your data, and then make it freely available to your boss. Remember, you gathered it on his time, at his expense.

This will show bold initiative, and provide real world data that can be used constructively.

I started doing this in 1976, and still do it every day today. This has given me an invaluable tool for predicting whatever I find myself trying to price, schedule or produce. On familiar items, I am within 1-2%. Less familiar, I never miss by 10%, and am often much closer. At times, it is spooky how accurate we can be. If we miss something, we usually know when and where, and why, and can adapt for the future, or count it as a fluke. It is the best tool a professional woodworker can have - accurate time prediction.

The reason so,m many companies take the easy route (China crap) is that they plateau out and feel they can't attract the type of people to carry the interesting stuff. They need to learn to find the right people and then develop them. You are right there, ripe and ready to step into that type of work - the sooner the better - before you burn out hanging cheap cabinet doors 8 hrs a day.

Or, contact me and I'll hire you.

2/14/15       #21: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Pat Gilbert

What Jim said, if you want to manage it you have to measure it.

Of course management might object to this for what ever bullshit reason...

My suggestion would be to set up the system sell the guys on it so that all the boss has to do is sign off on it, without spending much money.

That Toggl timer is awesome, what a great idea, I guess this is the latest technological advance for this and it eliminates the complaint of a guy schlepping back and forth to the time clock.

The biggest problem you will have is actually getting guys to do it. I use to make it part of their pay. You can't do that so YOU will have to actually check on them to see that they are doing it.

Something to remember is that all programs left unattended will become juvenile delinquents. IOW some one has to be in charge of it. If YOU don't want to take the responsibility then do not start the program because it WILL fail. It will be what they call "the failure of the commons" which is that if it is everybody's responsibility then it will be abused and ignored. (sort of like dumping trash into the ocean, or polluting the air)

2/15/15       #22: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Mel Member

You are all totally right--the answer is measurement. It always is.

A bit of a tangeant maybe, but I'm kind of shaking my head because I knew all along that timing your production is the way to go. You have definitely banged in the nail on that one. I had a breif but insightful corporate career in logistics and remember that these manufacturers had a full team of people dedicated to timing workers in the factory. We are talking about guys with clip boards and stop watches and an entire company-crafted database on custom software just for this purpose.

This determined pricing, turn around time, and employee salary. Essential department without a question. Now this begs the question--having worked with these guys, and knowing this, how was I somehow not sure about applying this to this woodworking shop?

Sometimes I think that the whole shop "dude" mentality stiffles this sort of thinking.

It's definitely time to grab the bull by the horns and rock it. Thanks guys-- this sort of stuff is way more fun than pettily eyeballing a raise because I'm annoyed :)

2/19/15       #23: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Adam

Mel,

Unfortunately you are in a position where many of us started. The first employer knew you when you knew nothing. Now he knows you as a decent guy who knows something. In his mind that means you went from $10 to $12. The reality is you may be at the same level as the $15 guy who has been at that same level for 5 years. If you follow my drift, the guy who thinks he taught you everything(who actually taught you little, because you are smart and taught yourself in his shop) will have a hard time paying you $20hr as a 2nd year guy even if in god's eye and ours you are worth it.

Good Luck. You may have to change employers to get a pay hike.

2/20/15       #24: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
amazed

Adam,

On what do you base your statement that Mel's employer taught him "little"?

How much do you think Mel's employer spent teaching him and mopping up his mistakes from that first year? Even Jesus had a learning curve.

2/20/15       #25: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Mel Member

Amazed,

I am happy that you ask this question--what is my cost/benefit ratio? I'd love to explore it.

Costs:

1. i ask a lot of questions. A lot. From Blade rake in relation to type of saw use, to how do you settle the bill when a costomer changes his mind on an approved design after construction. I am one pesky apprentice. It does not stop.

2. I am learning how to tune machines. Nobody in the shop is that good at it, and they do not hire professionels for sufficient maintenance, so it's just me and the internet. Sometimes, it takes time when I rip open a machine.

3. When I encounter an operation that I do not master/understand, and no one can provide sufficient knowledge, everything stops until I figure it out. Tools are being left out, things are all over the place and I'm fiddling, pulling out more tools. I won;t approximate and putty fill--I'll figure it out. Systematically. This can be very annoying to someone in a rush.

4. I have a young child at home. Sometimes I come to work very sleep deprived and a little debilitated. I still put my serious face on and give it my best, but I couldn;t call myself a complete superstar on those days.

Benefits:

1. I beleive in clean work environments and calibrated tools. I do everything in my power to maintain this, without ever being asked. It just happens.

2. I beleive in worker happiness. I buy cofffees, say hello, listen to frustrations, carpool with the carless. I clean up after them regularly, organize, restack, sweep and leave them set up to just work.

3. I beleive in foreman hapiness. I take anything he hates off his plate if I can.

4. I have had less returns than any of my coworkers. More than my foreman, but less than the other workers. They have been there for 5+ years. I have been there for 6 months.

Please tell me, where do you think I stand on newbie costs?

2/20/15       #26: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Amazed

Mel,

I never said you weren't an exceptional employee and a tremendous asset for any company.

What I took issue with was Adam's contention that your employer "actually taught you little". He has nothing to base this assertion on other than ideology.

For what it is worth I would love to have people as engaged as you are working for me.

2/20/15       #27: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Pat Gilbert

You are starting to sound more like a PIA than a true team member?

2/20/15       #28: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Mel Member

Thanks, Amazed--I had not taken it as a reproach but rather a fair question. But I do find it very nice that you took the time to make sure.

And no doubt, I have learned tons and tons from these folks. It is for sure a very nice place to be.

2/21/15       #29: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Sea444

You really need to sit down with your boss and have a heart to heart. We can stroke you here, but in the end it is only your boss's decision that matters.

2/22/15       #30: Business owners, managers, fellow w ...
Mel Member

Sea444

Life is funny thing. I actually joined this forum and started this thread to prepare myself for a heart to heart with the owner. I figured that there is nothing more ruthless than a stranger on the internet. So if I could handle what got thrown at me here, I would be so ready for that conversation, that it would be easy. Probably even pleasant.

But I've gained a completely different insight. I use to be a contractor. And that was very stressful. Now that I'm getting access to cabinet shop owner insights, I'm marvelling at what you folks do. Lets be honnest--the overhead on a cabinet shop is enough to make anyone queasy. It takes a lot of balls, and stress management, to do this.

I'm incontrollably passionate. And my needs for money are actually quite low. So I think I want to just throw a bunch of energy at this place and just see where it takes me, and them. They are talented, growing fast and full of good people. I have nothing to lose out of doing this. Good things will come.

 

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