I was wonder what time other shops start at. We start at 6:30-3:00 with a half hour lunch and over the years some guys will say when they first start that it hard to get up that early but after a week they love it. Today I call a guy I interviewed last week and told him that if he want the job it's his. The job is an apprentice position and he is 20 years old but was excited about it last week . He told me today the starting time would be a problem as he has a problem to even get up by 9:00 and he would take the job if he could start at 8:00. I thought he was joking at first but then I was blown away and just said thanks but no thanks and some other things. Has any one else come across this ?
One of the reasons I started on my own was start time. Usually 7am, 45 minutes drive time from the house. I'm not a morning guy and never will be. My natural clock would get me up at 10am and go to bed at 2am.
Now, after settling in for a decade on my own I get into the shop for 9am and leave between 5pm and 6:30 on average. Most of the time on the later end.
This helps out when a client wants me to come by after work, or stop by the shop after their day ends. There haven't been to many times where the later start time has any bad effects.
On occasion I need to get in early. Especially on install day. I'll get in for 7:30-8:00 so I can pack up and get to the clients home reasonably early.
For the first few years we operated 8:00 - 5:00, with lunch from 12:00 - 1:00, M-F. Three years ago we switched to 7:00 - 5:00 M-Th, and 8:00 - 12:00 on Fri. Guys love it and we've had no issues. If we need extra time we can stretch out Friday.
We have a completely unorthodox schedule.
Our primary work week runs from Wednesday thru Sunday. This is because a couple of our guys either have a significant commute into town or have a significant other who also works on the weekend. The commute on weekends is considerably shorter during prime time working hours.
Many, if not most, businesses are staffed on a 24/7 schedule. You can go grocery shopping pretty much any day of the week, or go to a movie, or play golf, have your house & health protected etc. For some reason the construction industry is primarily staffed on banker's hours.
The first thing I noticed about this was how peaceful my life became. I did not have to cover the shop on weekdays and be available for customers on the weekends too. For the most part now lots of people can't find me on Monday or Tuesday and don't look for me on Saturday or Sunday. It's like having a three day weekday.
Start & Stop times depend entirely on what works best for the individual. Each person is generally predictable within a half-hour or so. This evolved on a fairly organic basis. If someone is going to be more than 15 minutes later than their normal time they tend to text me.
Text, by the way, is an incredible way to communicate. The kids that work for me don't always hear their phone and never check email. Text, however, is like crack cocaine. Every text is like Christmas and I am always assured of a speedy response if we use text to communicate.
Our lunch & coffee breaks are completely random. This was the only part I designed. I've only had three jobs in cabinet shops during my entire career. All of them were fairly brief. My first one lasted just two weeks. The middle one lasted about five months and the final one maybe two months. There were easy to understand reasons for this.
I came from self-employment into my first job. I can remember exactly my very first break. A loud buzzer went off and it seemed like everybody dropped what they were doing and went outside for a smoke. I was almost done with sanding a cabinet and kept working. The foreman came over, tapped me on the shoulder & said "NOW". It took me exactly one day to become a clock watcher. I could glance at the shop clock and say to myself: "Yep. Gonna want a cigarette in ten minutes". The truth o the matter was I was going to want another cigarette in ten minutes".
The only way you could be a good spot to stop at precisely 4:30 is to not start anything after 4pm. That schedule, of course, require starting to taper off around 3:30. None of this has any relationship with the natural rhythm of work. It's not how you would pace yourself if you were working for yourself in your own shop.
A couple of times over the years I had guys work for me who came from more structured environments. They would make the delivery driver wait until they were done with break before helping to unload a truck. We were always having scheduling issues on bottleneck equipment. People were always asking "How long are you going to be on that saw?" That never happens anymore and we never run out of work because of log jams on the saw.
I should note that I have a very young crew. 23-26-27-28 & 32. These people all have an excellent work ethic and are very productive. Not a single barnacle in the group.
Over 28 years, we typically have had a 6:30 to 7:30 start, mostly so dads can be home when the kids come home from school. This is a nice free perk. Granted, the Boss does't get the big rush of seeing the Workforce rev up all on cue every day, but I got over that.
Today, I start about 9:00 and run to 5:00, sliding towards retirement. My commute is 95' out the back door to the shop. The other half of the workforce starts about 7:30 and goes to 4:00 or so. His schedule varies according to his kids, but he likes the freedom to adjust on the fly. He is trusted, makes a big difference.
I will often answer emails starting at 7:00 am, so my day has a leisurely start. And I sketch in the evenings at times.
We used to run 7 to 4. They got together and decided they wanted to start at 6. So now we are 6 to 3. When we need to run overtime the first thing to happen is they come in at 5! As a crew they like it. I typically work from 8 to 5, when I get busy I work from 6 to 5. When I need to do complex things without being interrupted I come on on the weekend. Those are my most productive times.
I have the hours that rich c. posted a pic of.
With a wife who has a weird work schedule and a son who has special needs and considering i do everything as im just a one man shop, my schedule is never the same.
I love it and dislike it at the same time.
I do something that's more meaningful with breaks. A lot of places do 10 min breaks a day, but 10 mins isn't a lot of time to do anything. So we do a longer morning break, and put a little extra time on lunch.
When I was younger and in my 20's I was a hardass military style when it came to time. If you were here 7:01 you were late and there was no excuse.
Now that I just turned 40 and expecting my first child, I myself may not be able to get here by 7am every morning. When it comes to school time I may well be the one to take him/her and pick them up.
My point is if you can offer flexibility without getting taken advantage of, that's a huge benefit in an employees eyes.
On a side note I've also been doing a lot of reading on the Nordic countries experiments of a 6 hour day as opposed to an 8 hour day. It forces you to really think about productivity and getting the most out of your day. I find myself I'm nowhere near as productive or useful after lunch than I am in the morning.
I have a time clock that records to the minute and does all the work for us
I got one question last pay period when a guy got paid for 38 hours and 48 minutes
He pissed and whined for 30 seconds then I stated "Hey, you know how exacting the cnc is ? So is the time clock you get paid what you work, and at that, I'm not a hard ass, but in 2018, you get paid by the minute and I will the accrue your vacation days by the minute. Any more questions ? "
Make a list - M-F and in the work it includes opening and closing procedures, job prep, production, shipping and receiving, guess what a lot more crap will get done delegated off fashion
I also pay by the minute. I do have a 5 minute grace period that someone can clock in before their scheduled start time and it counts as clocking in on time. I am in Missouri.
cabmaker, I used to have a schedule like yours with the only requirement that the work is done by the end of the day. I changed to a 9 - 5:30 schedule and it has yielded benefits. Before, everyone went on break when they felt like it. Some were abusing the system and taking breaks every hour. Now everyone goes on break at the same time and it has resulted in more interaction between the employees while on break. It has made a more cohesive team. With everyone working the same schedule, I no longer have petty jealousy about who is working harder / longer / more than the others.
Those were not the idea behind doing a regular schedule. The idea was that it would easier for me to manage up to 15 people on the same schedule rather than on 15 different schedules. It has become much easier for me to manage all of the people and we started daily meeting at the start of the day. This has really helped in that everyone knows the plan and hears the same plan for the day.
If someone is scheduled to work from 7 to 3:30 and takes his scheduled breaks and lunch and clocks in at 6:55 and goes to his bench and starts working or asks the foreman what he wants him to work on and clocks out at 3:30 do you pay him 8 hours and 5 minutes or 8 hours?
If he is 5 minutes late do you pay him from 7:00, 7:05 or at 7:15?
We started 6:00 for years ( Im always there by 5:00) but got tired of some guys dragging in 15 minutes late. So I asked them what time they wanted to start that they felt like they could get there on time. Everyone agreed on 7:00. So be it! worked great for a month or two, then same ones started dragging in late. I had always been soft on being a little late but now I pay by the exact hours( for those that are usually late) and am still leinant on those that are regularly early and on time. BUT if we are are leaving shop to install and waiting on someone that is late , I add all the guys time up that are standing around waiting plus my time and deduct it from those that are late. And hope they question me about it when they get their check ( only questioned me once) To quoteJohn Wayne in McKlintock "I wont give you anything. Ill trade you a fair days wage for a fair days work and we will both hold our heads up!" ( sorry about my typing and spelling)
We have 14 people some of the staff comes in a few early and actually clock in and gain an hour of OT per week doing this and are very productive, I think it's great and they always get their 40 hours in.
For the chumps that always clock in 15 mins late and then go load their lunch in the refrigerator,etc to hell with them I am tired of it.
I provide simple ira with 3% match, steel toed boots every six months, full pay in travel, lunch out of town, etc, 1/2 of medical and the want to actually come in late and be paid for it ?
As long as its legal in your state then I wouldn't worry.
We can't do it in California.
Our shop starts at 6 or 7 depending on the weather in winter and at 5 in the summer. My brother comes in about 20 minutes before the shop starts, I come in around 8 and usually leave around 6, tonight I will be here another hour.
When we are busy we try to work 9 hour days to stay ahead.
When someone clocks in 5 min before till 5 min after scheduled start time, they get paid from their start time. We have a meeting every morning to start the day, so no one goes to their station until the meeting is over.
Concerning attendance, we have a tardy/absent points policy that we feel is easy to understand and administer. So if a person is 5 min late, they get paid for start time but accumulate attendance points. If someone is habitually late, they will point out shortly. This policy is explained in detail by me on their first day and is included in the employee handbook that they are given the first day as well.
Keith, I think you are playing with fire by not paying them for the time that they have worked. That is something the government would not look kindly upon. I realize that you are trying to penalize the ones who are late and holding up the rest. However, I think that a different punishment might go over better with the labor board.
I have no clock to punch I write down the time I say they get there So if you are ten mintues late ( and holding up $30 per hour worth of other guys I just divide the $30 by ten minutes and say they started at 20 minutes after. Just because you are on the premises doesnt mean you get paid I say when they are starting If they dont like it they can go down thre road where they pay less money and fire you after three tardys.. Mind you Im very fair with these guys Most have two -three weeks vacation ( and take it all in a check within two monthes after the first of the year) I max match 401k and pay all the holidays I let anyone off without pay anytime they need , I let them work extra hours if they want to make more BUT I wont take a loss because of tardiness. I have never fired anyone( except a fall down drunk once it was obvious I knew about him) , many have quit and most have come back wanting back on
In this state you have to pay by the minute to be correct. Several years ago I know of an employer who broke at the quarter hour. So if you worked 12 min over you didn't get paid for it as it was not 15 same with starting time. Federal Marshals (as in US Treasury Dept) went back 7 years on payroll and checks were written. Don't mess around with it, if they are clocked in they are being paid, no exceptions, no company business, meetings etc off the clock. Its the Law.
Ralph, that's funny stuff about the marshals, but 100% inaccurate.
Federal marshals work for the Dept of Justice, not Treasury.
Federal marshals have never done a Dept of Labor audit in their entire history and they never will, they're LEOs, not labor hour and wage auditors.
And the statute of limitations on recovery of back-wages is 2 years, not 7. No doubt checks were written, but the story is either faulty recall by someone or grossly exaggerated or both.
However, you are right about DoL wage and hour rules -- they must be followed.
I once had some jerk I'd fired call the DoL on me and had DoL auditors crawling all over the place for 3 days.
They slunk away after they'd talked to all 30 or so employees in the joint and audited payroll records for the last 2 years.
They said "Thank you for your time, we've concluded our examination and didn't find any violations."
Not even a single objection to any employee I'd classified as "management" (which completely obviates the hourly rules)? Imagine that. Gosh, those employees actually had management responsibilities and were properly classified. No doubt that pained them no end.
I said something like maybe you should pay more attention to the credibility of the moron making an allegation before you waste 100+ hours of government time, not to mention my time on total BS.
Close enough for government work.
Since they found their own way in, I let them find their own way out of my 20,000 square foot building.
I am a Time Nazi. Disclaimer: I am 50% German, but have no True Nazi tendencies, although have been accused ot lots of general German stereotypical traits. We use a time clock. If your start time is 7:00 and you clock in at 7:01 you are late. IMO that's being generous, as once the clock hits 7:00 it's really at least 7:00.00000001. So we actually provide a 1 minute cushion. I have fired more people for being late than any other single thing. We had one person that lived literally at the end of our (admittedly, relatively long, at 1/4 mile or so) driveway, and he had trouble getting to work at his scheduled time of 1/2 hour later than others that had to drive 30 minutes from another state and deal with Border Crossings.
I really don't know if our State has special laws about how you have to pay people. We pay from Scheduled Start time (or actual clock in time, rounded up to nearest .1 hr if after scheduled start time), to clock out time, rounded to nearest .1 hours. OT is not paid unless authorized.
We have three start times.
* Our production works 7:00-3:30
* Front office is 7:30-4:00
* Sales and back office is 8:00-4:30.
(I am there 6:45-4:30 or later)
Morning Break is 9:30-9:45
Lunch is 12:15-12:45*
Afternoon Break is 12:45-1:00
When we need to work OT we generally work production until 4pm, and if that's not enough the guys would rather start at 6:30. In fact 2 guys seem to compete with each other to be the first on site and generally are there by about 6:30 anyways. The guys seem to really relish having time at the end of the day to go kayaking, fishing, getting a massage or haircut, getting the lawn mowed before dinner, etc.
*we have one person who takes lunch from 1:00-1:30 to ensure there's always someone available to answer the phone.
Very interesting Karl. I don't believe I've ever heard of anyone else that combined paid break with unpaid lunch.
I would think working 4-4.5 hours straight with no break in a physically demanding environment like a shop would be taxing. We end up with 3 sessions each of 2.5 hours and that seems to work great.
We did try the 4-9s and 1-4, but too big of a percentage of our business is dependent on a "full business hour day" and we get too many different schedules that are markedly different. Just makes for a lack of team environment.
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