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union scale in Chicago

5/29/15       
Pinetree

Would any one know the union scale per hr for a journeyman cabinet maker. I did talk to a rep from the union 1024 and he said that it is $25.60 plus bennies. If the cabinetmaker were to go on the job site to install it would run about $3.00 more . Now I here from other people that it is $42.00 per hr. Plus bennies so who is right as we are thinking of becoming a union shop.

5/30/15       #2: union scale in Chicago ...
Mel

Very sorry not to provide answers for your questions, but you got my curiosity going.

May I ask why you guys are thinking union?

Hope you don't mind, I love these sort of topics.

5/30/15       #3: union scale in Chicago ...
Pinetree

Why we are thinking going union is mainly the job pool for non union shops are shrinking. There are a lot of garage shops that use their home garage as a shop that are not legal. They do not have the right zoning, insurance,etc. People are using them and because the cost is lower. Union jobs you have to use a professional shop that will do the work with all the proper business documentation. Now let me stress i am not talking about the shop that someone has one their property that may have a lot of land to do that and is all legal. I am talking about the guys that are is a residential area that is not zoned for that kind of work and some don't even carry any kind of insurance. I am starting to put together a group of shops that we will start to look at where these guys are and have them reported to their towns to have them shut down. You would be surprised what a client will tell you about who you are bidding against. Also we want to boycott suppliers that supply these shops such as lumber yards as we have set up bulk purchasing through some of the mills that we would save money plus take away sales from the distributor. I know unions are not perfect in many ways but some of their ideas or rules work for all professional workers out there. I should be able to pay an employee a descent wage and insurance , but that is hard to do when your cost are going up and your take in is getting lower.

5/30/15       #4: union scale in Chicago ...
Long Timer

So your plan is to shut down your competition by reporting them to the authorities because they are beating you on price? And you plan to get together a group of other shops to bypass and boycott local suppliers who sell to your competition? And when the competitors are all shut down and your union shop will be the last one standing , everyone will have to come to you for all their needs? Sounds to me like an unending game of Whack-A-Mole that will add nothing but aggrevation to your operations.

For every one of the businesses that don't pass muster you are able to shut down, what is to stop them from moving to the next town and starting up again tomorrow? And what is to stop another 5 new ones from popping up for every one you successfully shut down?

I'd certainly be looking at my operations and who I am selling and marketing to before I would look to squash competition and boycott suppliers. No one wins on a race to the bottom price, and there will always be someone who will sell the project for less. If you cannot find any other reason than price a client would buy from you, you would be better off just shutting down your shop now. It's more than enough to do to keep a client happy without all the extra BS of trying to make the other shops and distributors follow your tune.

Go find another market to sell in if you don't like the one you are currently doing. The grass may look greener elsewhere (like in union shop land), but no matter where you end up, someone will sell for less.

LT

5/30/15       #5: union scale in Chicago ...
D Brown

If you have lost jobs to the little Gypo
garage shops , perhaps your marketing is lacking or you may not educate your potential clients as to the benefits of using your legally insured shop with all your references and such .

Good luck on the

boycott and vendetta plan

let us know how that works for you.

5/30/15       #6: union scale in Chicago ...
Robert Member

I'm not so sure you would have much in the way of success trying to close down unlicensed shops or getting a supplier to quit selling their goods to them.

On the other hand I do see an issue with trying to compete with a garage shop. Personally I have no qualms with a garage shop as long as they have all the necessary paperwork the City and County requires them to have in order to be considered a "business".

It should be the Cities responsibility to make sure the garage shop has all the necessary paperwork on hand.

Years ago in California,the various agencies would spot check businesses that were listed in the Yellow pages and check to see the necessary Licenses were in order. Don't know if other States follow the same procedure.

Not sure if it still holds true but our Coatings Supplier who we had done business with for 15 years requested that we send a copy of our Spray Booth License...a photo of the Booth...and proof that we were Licensed to spray.

Their explanation was that the County was trying to prevent garage shops from illegally spraying. No paperwork?? sorry;no materials.

Becoming a Union Shop will definitely allow you to bid on a variety of jobs that may not have been available to you in the past. Banks-City work-Hospitals- " Down Town Work" etc. If your State,town etc..is supported by a strong Union presence the opportunity may be a great benefit.
Keep in mind though, collecting on the $$$ can sometimes drag on, so a healthy cash flow is needed.

Best of luck to you Pinetree. Whatever your decision is I wish you success.

5/30/15       #7: union scale in Chicago ...
Pinetree

D. Brown , We do educate our clients on using those kinds of shops and some listen. But there are rules in place that all of us have to follow such as OSHA, it is there to protect the employee and the company.

LT k we are not shutting them down on just pricing as you posted they are a legal shops. On boycott local suppliers to our competition, they are not our completion they are a legal shops.So don't make it sound like we are just doing this because we lose some jobs to guys that don't play by the rules. For the union idea i look into it because of certain jobs that we want to get into and to also be able to get a better income for the company to help our employes.The way I look at it is is worth the extra BS to better our trade and our market we have been in for a long time and have great clients but to grow we must find new clients and that's when we run into this problem.

5/30/15       #8: union scale in Chicago ...
Pinetree

Thank you Robert and i agree i have no problem with a shop that has the right documentation. I know cal. is very strict on spraying so I could see that. They have not done that here in IL yet I think because the water base is starting to take over the market here as all the old timers that won't shoot anything but solvents go out of business. Yes those union jobs can be hard to get paid on plus there are a lot of holes in there way of operations that is not good for the cabinet shop only the installers on the job.Thanks again for getting my point.

5/30/15       #9: union scale in Chicago ...
Robert Member

Greetings Pinetree..not sure what you mean by " not so good for the cabinet shop, only the installers ".

Are you referring to a non-Union shop building the Cabinets ( which is kinda,somewhat, maybe, questionably OK) but the Installers having to be a Union Member to install on the job site ?
If so...yep that can be an issue for the Cabinet Shop.

5/30/15       #10: union scale in Chicago ...
Chas  Member

So you are considering going Union (In Chi , no less) and you want wage information from a web forum, which of course is unreliable. Go talk to the Union Brothers? They will take good care of you. FYI, when a non union project is approached by the Union in this area, and the owner declines their selfless offer to use 'efficient' Union labor (sic), in a day or two, all manor of OSHA, inspectors, city official etc will magically appear.

Serious suggestion: Be careful !

5/30/15       #11: union scale in Chicago ...
Pinetree

Yes that was it.The rep that I talk to said that even though that is done they are suppose use a union shop. If you tie in with a good GC then you would be fine but most of the GC only care about the low dollar.

5/30/15       #12: union scale in Chicago ...
Cabmaker

For what it is worth: We built the cabinets for the house that the head of the Western Division AFL-CIO - Teamsters president built when he retired.

He didn't actually retire. He was voted out. As part of the golden parachute the union leadership reserved for themselves was a huge lump sum payment in the case that they ever lost confidence of the union members.

He built his entire house with scab labor.
Not a single union member on the site.

Tell me again why you want to join the union?

5/30/15       #13: union scale in Chicago ...
Pinetree

Chas ,sounds like your not a fan of the union but here in Chicago downtown area you will be lucky to get into any job that is non Union. This is not a right to work state either so they run the show on some of the larger jobs.

5/30/15       #14: union scale in Chicago ...
Cabmaker

My first experience with unions was at my very first job as a box boy in high school Ole, he union rep, would come by once a week to shake us down for an hour's pay.

When it came time for the grocery store clerk's contract to be renegotiated everybody got a bump in pay........except the box boys. Ole looked right at us and said "you're expendable".

We are building a tunnel to carry traffic in my home town. The whole downtown area is ripped up. The longshore union got into a turf war with building trades union about four jobs loading muck onto barges. The fate of FOUR jobs shut down our tunnel for a month.

All the union does is protect incompetency.

5/30/15       #15: union scale in Chicago ...
Robert Member

Ya got good and bad in all Trades and good and bad Politics in all Trades.
In my Union ( have since retired ) as long as we completed the job on time and on budget and kept the GC's happy ( in his eyes and in the eyes of his customer ) we could almost be guaranteed future work.

Ya got good GC's and not so good GC's and it wont take much time to figure out who the not so good ones are.It didn't matter what it took for us to properly complete our tasks...we all put our nose to the grindstone and did what it took. Absolutely no shenanigans were tolerated at the Union Houses I worked in.

Had it not been for the Union,I never would have been involved with the re-building or remodeling of many City Halls, countless Banks, very upscale clothing stores, City Libraries, Symphony Centers, Dolby Labs,A Library in Africa funded by the Getty Foundation, The Davies Symphony Center,Kaiser Hospitals, Catholic Schools and Catholic Churches and countless other projects.

Not many shops can afford a quarter million dollar a week payroll except perhaps a Union Shop. Our shop had over 100 in House and OJ members from Concrete Workers-Drywall- Painters-Cabinet Makers- Wood Finishers-Installers and not once did any of us ever miss getting paid each and every Thursday.

Sadly I must say that the total number of Union Shops are dwindling but some of my best years spent in the Trades was while working a Union Shop.
Have a nice Pension and Annuity thanks to my Union. I was fortunate to work for upstanding shop owners and the opportunity to work on some interesting projects.

5/30/15       #16: union scale in Chicago ...
Pinetree

I appreciate all the input on unions,garage shop,etc. but I think we should get back to what the original post was.

Thank you

5/30/15       #17: union scale in Chicago ...
Alan F.

Pinetree,

You need to find out about the apprentice program, what training is required and do they teach them things like CNC.

You need to know if there is a group WC program with reduced rates.

You need to know what the union can do to help you get work with union GC's.

You need to ask if on a union job the general is slow paying they will take a joint pay check for the benefits portion so you can slow your expense payments down.

You need to learn what the rules are when you hire the next guy off of the bench.

You need to know how time is calculated for installers downtown, or then the clock starts and stops.

You need to know what the process is for getting a reduction in wage or benefits when trying to compete on a non union job.

What are the rules for Project managers (assuming non union office)?

Would they let you have a union installation company and a non union manufacturing company?

Its a lot harder to divorce a union than it is a wife so be certain.

5/30/15       #18: union scale in Chicago ...
Robert Member

Pinetree, meet with the rep again and ask him/her to bring you a copy of the Union Contract. Look it over and decide for yourself if it would be a benefit. READ it CLOSELY,maybe have your Attorney and Tax Consultant give it a good going over too.

Might add...when is the current Union Contract up?

5/30/15       #19: union scale in Chicago ...
Robert Member

Whoops almost forgot. A woman owned business gets some extra tax advantages. How busy is your Wife ? ;-)

5/30/15       #20: union scale in Chicago ...
Mel

"I appreciate all the input on unions,garage shop,etc. but I think we should get back to what the original post was.

Thank you"

Pinetree-- sit down with the union and ask. Tell them about the hearsay about other wages. See how they react/what they say.

As for the thread tangent on your situation, I have the feeling you are so deep in it everyday, that you may not realise how downright intriguing to an outsider this whole situation is.

So far my only experience with unions is workers rising up against The Man--for me personally this is the first time ever that I hear of an owner wanting to unionize. I've actually told a few people today about this whole thing--and they were as intrigued as I am.

Is this scenario common in the States?

(sorry if I further the tangent, but as I said, this is really, really interesting)

5/30/15       #21: union scale in Chicago ...
Pinetree

Mel, it really depends on what part of the country your in here. Mostly bigger cities and non right to work states a have the unions.My interest in the union was just that is to see if this would allow us to get into larger jobs and contract furniture.Like I said in the earlier post I did talk to the rep from the union and the cost for a journeyman cabinet maker with benefits is around 39.00 per hr. I am not pro Union or anti Union but there are still a lot of holes in their agreement that is very hard to make that decision.Around here there are two types of union shops , ones that make a great living at it and the other that are called bottom feeders and that is not the cause of the unions it is just bad business.

5/30/15       #22: union scale in Chicago ...
Cabmaker

Pinetree,

During the last down turn in the economy how did the union shops fare? Were they the first ones to run out of work or did they have contracts that kept them afloat even though the rest of the economy atrophied?

What about coming back into the economy. When did they start becoming competitive again?

How long do you think this economic cycle will last? How long is the longest boom cycle you have worked in?

What happens to your ability to procure work if you need to spend $39 per hour on your talent when the "bottom feeder" is more nimble?

I used to work on a troller boat north of San Francisco. Bodega Bay was also port to a couple of "bottom feeder" boats. Those trauler boats fished 8 to 5 monday thru friday, stormy or otherwise. Our fish was caught with hook and line. The fish were beautiful, not a scale out of place.

Who do you think made more money?
The bottom feeders or the trophy fisherman?

5/30/15       #23: union scale in Chicago ...
Mel

Wow that is for sure a particular situation! So is it impossible to "give it a go"? Are you locked in if you try?

I've also no opinion-- seen good, seen bad, mostly seen convoluted. Nothing is cut and dry imo.

5/30/15       #24: union scale in Chicago ...
Pinetree

Cabmaker , the union guys where hit just as hard as the non union were here. The first ones to go were the bottom feeders. The guys that did really great had great connections with the people that were still doing work. The bottom feeders did not make enough in the good times to survive downturns like that. As I said before that is not a union thing it a business thing. As for being in downturns ,I have been through 3 of them so far and survived all of them.Today union shops are so busy here they can't keep up.the bottom feeders have not come back in the union work , but the a legal shop has.

5/31/15       #25: union scale in Chicago ...
Cabmaker

I basically feel about unions like I feel about bankers. Both organizations in my mind are parasitical. Setting that aside I am curious about the pros & cons of becoming a union shop.

You've already stipulated that the primary pro is that this opens the doors to work you wouldn't otherwise have access to.

What are the cons in your mind?
If you become a union shop can you un-become a union shop? Would there be any disadvantage to being a union shop if the economy started to cool off. Would your guys be willing to renegotiate a wage with your or could they even renegotiate a wage with you? Do you have to set your deal up with a union steward? Is his paycheck contingent on you staying with the deal?

You've been through three downturns. Other than not being a "bottom feeder" what was it that made you a survivor?

Could you have made it through any of those downturns if you were locked into a union contract?

We got about thirty hours notice the last time we had a "downturn". What is fundamentally different about the economy today than it was just prior to the apocalypse? Was our confidence in the economy warranted back then? Is it warranted now?

5/31/15       #26: union scale in Chicago ...
Pinetree

I think the main problem here in IL is that it is not a right to work state. So those jobs that I want to get involved in, those are lock up in buildings by the unions and it is very hard to get around that. The residential market here is where the GC take the cheapest guy he or she can get. I bid on a job 2 years ago for a couple we did past work for on their new house. The builder set the budget for them and then right before the drywall was to go up they called me and ask if I would do the 5 Built-ins. It was 2 fireplace double mantels with cabinetry on both sides, large mudroom , kids play room and a entertainment center 18' long. Some painted some stained all R/P doors inset cabinetry. The G/C budget for all 5 installed$15,000.00 and they said that was the top of their budget because they have had some many extras. I did not even try to bid it because it was so low it was not even worth looking at it. The G/C here do this because they want to get their bid accepted and then the first check that is drawn on the title company is their cut, then they live by the budget and the contract and they have carpenters build the built ins and in 2 years they look like a earth quick hit them with all the cracking in paint lines and so on. But that is the residential side. I agree with you on unions they can be very unfair and hard to work with but until they pass a right to work act you have to get with them if you want to grown in that market.

I think the last down turn affected everyone and the ones that survived around here learned to change with the times even the unions. That was not by just dropping pricing, but also by changing what your product that your shop puts out. I always think of Steinway Piano did during WW2. The could not get the metals the needed for there pianos so to keep guy busy they took on government war contacts building coffins. The worst thing was his kid was in the Army at war and he always thought that the coffin he was building was his sons.We are all going to see bad times union or non union but as business owners we have to be professional and run these companies as a business and that includes keep people that don't play by the rules out.

5/31/15       #27: union scale in Chicago ...
Mel Member

Pintree- I recently asked the plant manager of a large shop who beleives in playing by the rules and outputting high quality if that was a hard sell compared to the cheapos/cheaters out there.

He said sometimes, but that he had joined an association of like-minded businesses and professionals that try to keep business amongst ethical/fair companies.

In this example it is AWMAC--Architectural Woodwork Manufacturers Association of Canada. Does your area have such an association?

http://bc.awmac.com/

6/1/15       #28: union scale in Chicago ...
Chicago Guy

Pinetree,
If you have never dealt with the unions in Chicago be very careful. The current local 1027 journeyman's wage is @ $27 PLUS a @ $25 benefits package. They may give you a grace period to get to the current wages but they won't negotiate on the benefits package.
If you do sign up you are now tied to the union until you finally close shop.
Continue to have your well run shop and subcontract out your installation to a union installation company

6/1/15       #29: union scale in Chicago ...
Robert Member

If you sign a Union Contract you are bound by the Contract. Plain and simple. When the Contract comes up for renewal, you then have an option to opt out and not sign it. I asked in an earlier posting if you knew when the current contract is up for renewal....do you know ?

If you decide against renewing it be prepared for pickets to march in front of your shop with "scab" signs. They can obtain a permit from the Police Department to lawfully have a megaphone and their "voice" will be heard on the next block.
Can get nasty... punctured tires...video taping of employee cars, license plates, possible vandalism..

Ask me how I know. ;-) ( At least in California that is how it works/worked )

6/1/15       #30: union scale in Chicago ...
Mel Member

This stuff is such a toughy...

I used to work for a fellow who was a ferocious self-starter from a garage. He raised fast and hard and was quite successful...but got a little stressed and cranky and got a little unfair/nasty to his staff.

The union preyed on his discontented staff and unionized his shop--destroyed his business (our area and this industry was not a good set-up for it--not saying this necessarily applies to all).

I had known him long enough to know that a)he was stressed b) when it was time to say F off buddy, you're being a P. But I also understood the fury of the new staff and the desire to stick it to him.

Took him 2 years to become non union again. By the time he managed he was quite exhausted and disheartened. He now has... no employees and an organic farm! lol

Just one story tho... no one story represents all. Even majority stories don't represent all.

6/1/15       #31: union scale in Chicago ...
Pinetree

We have decided not to join into the union as there are to many holes in there agreement that is not in our best interest
I feel also soon that IL will become a right to work state . Thank all for your replies.

6/3/15       #32: union scale in Chicago ...
Snaglpuss

To Chicago Guy ..
The benifits package is $15.81 for inside
not $25. Maybe the outside construction agreement is $25.


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