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Remuneration

7/17/15       
JWS

Mel launched an interesting thread a couple days ago about how people get paid. It seemed like it was about to get entertaining when all of a sudden it was jerked. Like most of her contributions it was an important one and I think needs further discussion.

If I interpret canuck properly I think the drift of it had to do with how her future pay increases would be determined. Mel was concerned about whether or not she would have to ask for pay increases or whether they would be offered. She was also concerned with parity as regards pay relative to contribution.

These are all very important considerations. The only reason an employee comes to work with us is for a paycheck. If the paycheck stops happening you won't see them anymore. There is not, however, such a direct link between that paycheck and motivation. People are motivated by the other things. The paycheck seems to be just an admission ticket.

What makes some people more curious than others? What makes them more engaged? Would Mel be more impressed with a bump in pay or a bump in responsibility or recognition?

As I understood the thread she has a pending performance and pay review. Should she ask for what "she" thinks she is worth or should the company make her an offer based on what they think of her relative contribution? Mel is concerned that at some point down the road she will discover she has been underpaid and feel like a chump as a result.

The cost of living has a lot to do with pay but this is something better taken up with your legislator. You can only be paid a fraction of what you contribute because the company also has to have a reason to exist. At the same token your company can't exist or flourish without the heart and minds of your workers.

I can remember being a dishwasher in college. It didn't take long for me to become top banana in the kitchen because the turnover was terrible. I was making about $3 an hour. I liked my job and management seemed to like me. They liked me so much, in fact, they gave me a 25¢ raise. The raise, however, put it all into context for me. Here I was, busting my butt, doing such a good job they wanted to give me more money. If I was such a waterfront hero and the best they could come up with was two-bits they obviously needed the money more than I did so I told them to stuff it!

It's a funny thing this motivation stuff. There I was, perfectly content with a great job and in a heartbeat converted from kitchen plongeur to ACLU lawyer.

Ever since that experience I have been proactive with pay increases. With rare exception increases in pay have always been at least a couple dollars per hour. In some cases I would start people at $15 and move them to $25 in a month.

I always explain what it would take to get to $35 an hour but there seems to be an ambivalence kicks in at this point. The guys seem much more interested in small steady increases than acquiring the skills needed to move pay more dramatically.

I would be curious to hear what Mel has to say about this. Mel, how would you organize pay in a small shop vs a bigger shop? Can you pay based on merit and not make some people angry or do you pay based on longevity? You commented that it wouldn't be long before you'd likely know the pay structure for everybody? What do you think would ensue if others discovered you rocketed past them?

This pay stuff is tricky. If all I had to do was add zeros to the paycheck to get what I wanted I would do that in a heartbeat.

7/17/15       #2: Remuneration ...
JWS

I forgot to add this file:

That's what the money is for!

7/17/15       #3: Remuneration ...
dean c

interesting topic.
re: your experience as dishwasher- i worked
in a window shade factory while in HS- at that time, minimum wage was $1.60 an hour
I too busted my butt, was praised up and down for what a great job I did, and was promised a raise because of how productive I was. As the weeks turned into months, I finally got my raise- up a nickel!! to $1.65 hr. I was gone!
I always remember that experience when dealing with my employees; because I don't want to be that asshat employer!

7/17/15       #4: Remuneration ...
Joe

Pay is tricky...and it truly resides in the eye of the beholder.

At a previous cabinet shop, virtually everyone of us had been there multiple years, knew our jobs, and worked fairly well together. The shop foreman had been promoted from within, was well respected, and truly gifted at woodworking.

The shop's break-even point was 45k a month. As long as just that much came in, the boss met the bills, including paying himself. One particular year, our salespeople did an outstanding job, and the shop was averaging 90k a month...month after month. During that same year, the shop essentially built the boss's home. Personnel were pulled to build it, the shop produced all the cabinets and millwork, and we installed it all. Through it all, we still maintained 90k a month out the door. Some weeks were long...most days were long...but we kept producing.

Pay/performance time came around. We were stoked...we had beat the break-even point for months, and built the boss' home, and we were still going strong. Surely we were looking at decent raises for everyone.

Decent was an understatement. The highest raise was $0.15 an hour. The bulk of us received $0.10. The shop foreman received a tongue-lashing about missing the stated material margins (so much for building the house)...and the installers were slammed because we were clocking too much overtime. (Mind you, we barely added head-count through that entire time...just worked longer to get the cabinets out the door.)

Within 3 months, the shop foreman left to work for a large manufacturing company, the bulk of the crew that had been together for 5-7 years was gone, and the boss had hired people who couldn't read a tape to build semi-custom cabinets.

I went to a small shop that was handling high-end cabinets and architectural millwork. My final straw? Those individuals who couldn't read a tape were making more than I...simply because the boss couldn't get anyone else in for less. I trained each one of them...could do anything in the shop, and install...and they made more. (It worked out, though...within 2 years at the new job, I was making much more.)

I often wonder what the place would have looked like that year...and possible now...if he had simply come off his wallet enough. We weren't looking to jump dollars an hour more...but a $1.00 here...a $1.50 there...a simple thank you for helping him stay in the black while building his home...that could have gone a long way towards keeping us.

7/17/15       #5: Remuneration ...
John S  Member

I came up against the same thing when I started out in the veneer mill back in the 70's. I started out as a Veneer Mill Helper, making around $4.00 an hour, which was the lowest paying job in the factory at the time. After about a year I took on the Veneer Lathe Operator's job, the highest paying job in the factory (it was a union shop and I was the only one to apply, so I got the job) at around $6.00 per hour.

The company told me that "the best we can do is give you a 5 cent increase per month, from $4.00 to $6.00 per hour. So they wanted to take 40 months to get me up to top pay scale. It was quite a jump in responsibility, so I didn't balk.

It actually motivated me. I knew I could do the job, and do it well, and after six months when my foreman came up and told me I was hitting production and quality marks exceeding the last operator's (he ran the lathe for 20 years) that was my cue to say, "then pay me or lose me". It took less than one day to get the rest of the $2.00 per hour raise, no questions asked.

Personally, I'm not afraid to ask for a raise. I've done it a dozen times over the years, but always from a position of strength. I never once walked up to my boss and said "I need a raise". I always approach it as "I'm damn good, and you know it."

Seems like these days everyone wants a raise just for showing up to work. "I'm not going to work harder/better until they pay me more!" I took the opposite route and made my employer WANT to pay me, because I presented the best value for their dollar. Sure, I have had to be forward about it at times, but I always knew that I was worth what I was asking for.

7/17/15       #6: Remuneration ...
Mel

JWS--I asked to have the thread removed.

There are some brilliant people on this forum--most of which I have personal contact with by now. Things are going exceptionally well for me and I can get what I need without a WW hive mind--especially if the hive mind is going down hill.

There's a hand full of morons that probably run shops much like the first woodworking shop I was in--and quite frankly I have a long standing policy not to argue with idiots. But I almost did! lol.

If no one is playing nice I don't see the point of playing. It's downright dumb-arse-going-no-where mentality to despise asking questions. And to see human relations observations, that shape the world, as drama.

"I would be curious to hear what Mel has to say about this. Mel, how would you organize pay in a small shop vs a bigger shop? Can you pay based on merit and not make some people angry or do you pay based on longevity? You commented that it wouldn't be long before you'd likely know the pay structure for everybody? What do you think would ensue if others discovered you rocketed past them?"

See in a small shop, it's all about what they mean to you. And that's way harder to measure. Maybe they produce a wee bit less, but get everyone going, make the owner's day easier in immeasurable ways, etc.

But now I'm in a very big shop, where employees punch in not only for job numbers, but for batch numbers, and for tasks.

Productivity is so well logged that I'd like to see my pay be based on that, and not the annoying song and dance of how ballsy I can be at a negotiation. If there are numbers, let's use them. Did the crew I ran make more then the crew Joe ran? Did I bang out those benches faster the Dave?

I know to the bottom of my bones that my question is valid. Just questioning right now what percentage of the audience here is valid. If thinking angers a person, they are are part of the problem.

I hear nowadays most people only get salary raises by changing jobs. I can attest to that. And I think that both me, and you folks that own businesses, should dang rights be opening a dialogue about this. Question is that I'm the only person on that other side of things here, and I'm running out of patience for the "Big Hat No Cattle" boys.

BTW JWS-- you are good stuff :)

7/17/15       #7: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

A shop has to be able to charge at least 5x what they pay the employee just to break even.

Every position has a certain amount the shop budgets for and that is the ceiling on what the person can make or the shop loses money.

A supervisory position pays more as his/her salary is amortized over those they supervise.

I take exception to someone asking for more money after 3 weeks that is way too soon.

I find it contradictory that a person talks about the purpose of woodworking and all, and in less than a week talks about more money.

Maybe this is typical with millennials?

7/17/15       #8: Remuneration ...
Mel

"A shop has to be able to charge at least 5x what they pay the employee just to break even."

Exactly. They have production data, and just throw this parameter at it. Voila--salary.

My argument is that this can be math. Sounds pretty close to math if you ask me.

PS Pat--ever thought of being less crotchety? Your brain is fantastic. The crotchety shit takes away from it.

7/17/15       #9: Remuneration ...
Mel

Waaaaaaaaiiiit a freakin second-----

"I find it contradictory that a person talks about the purpose of woodworking and all, and in less than a week talks about more money"

That ALMOST slide past me... Do you do gigs for fun? For exposure? To show that you are really "into it"?

Dang rights I want fair pay. But where I differ from most is that I want actual fair. For both parties.

Make this dialogue about how to reach that instead about criticism of millenials. Then we all get somewhere.

Seriously, all you folks, quit this crotchety shit.

7/17/15       #10: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

I stated a while back that the way to get ahead was to find what was needed and wanted and produce it. That does not mean ASSUME what is needed and wanted.

Every new worker automatically assumes they are the "blah blah blah" and everyone knows that.

What they have not found out is what they don't know.

The opposite of this is tell the employer what you need and want. This is fair enough at the interview, but not 3 weeks in.

If someone was so arrogant as to tell me this I would say, seen this before, it ain't gunna work, see ya.

7/17/15       #11: Remuneration ...
Mel

Pat--it's totally fine if you'd hate having an employee like me. Pesky asker of questions... Some people actually like this, believe it or not.

I'm doing well where I am, and I adore these people. But I prepare for everything, it's my nature. It's served me well. You folks were at some point people that helped at that. Maybe not so much anymore?

Still thank you for opening my mind to commercial, large and mega hardcore, Pat!

Cheers :)

7/18/15       #12: Remuneration ...
JWS

This is a question for Mel & John S.

We know from what you write that you are very effective in your position. You are hitting all the metrics and for the most part most of the shots you take are nothing but net. For this you are deserving of your share of the pie. Your pay should be commensurate with your contribution. We all agree with that.

What about for projects your company takes on to better position itself for the future? Sometimes in my shop a customer comes along with a project I think would make a good photograph and that I think could leveraged into more work in the future. On these jobs there might be a bit of a learning curve or we might have been a bit more gracious on our price because we wanted to earn that business. What do you think should happen to your pay for those projects?

Or what about a downturn in the economy? The last job we built before the economy crashed was 12 cabinets for $11K. This wasn't our highest price by far but was certainly enough to pull a profit from. After the apocalypse we full blown presentations on nine jobs before we got one. That job had 32 cabinets and sold for $14K. We went from just under $1000 per box to $437 per box. It was the same shop and the same crew but obviously a different financial outcome.

How elastic are your pay demands? I can certainly understand you wanting your fair share when times are good but what about when they aren't? What would be your sense of "fair" if I came to you and asked you to work for 40% of your previous rate? This is what I had to work with.

If you think your customer should come to you on their own volition with an increase in pay for you do you also think that you should commiserate with your boss and offer to take a pay cut?

For what it is worth, about five years ago I hired a fellow who had been out of work for over a year. His unemployment had run out and his mom was helping to pay his mortgage out of her pension. The last shop he worked at before the crash paid him $25 per hour plus $9 in benefits.

I paid him a flat $25 an hour. I couldn't afford benefits for myself and couldn't afford them for him either. For the six months he worked for me before I let him go I heard regularly how he had taken a $9 per hour payout to come to work for me. From my perspective he (or his mom) had received a $25 bump in pay.
He was very smart fellow and very capable but was very clear that if I wanted to see this contribution I would have to pay more for it.

So John S. & Mel, how will you handle this when (not if) the economy crashes again?

7/18/15       #13: Remuneration ...
Sea444

After over 45 years in business it continues to amaze me how employees never realize that business owners are not in business for the purpose of providing employment. Good ones and bad ones come and go. No matter how good or how bad they all feel under paid and under appreciated.

7/18/15       #14: Remuneration ...
Puzzleman Member

Pat, I find it demeaning to group people together and say that this trait applies to all of them. I treat individuals as individuals. Just as you will be able to find many facts to support your belief, I can find as many that will disprove it. So I think that everyone needs to realize that people are each different. Giving groups of individuals is not a good way to deal with people. It leads to communities banning pit bull dogs even though I have 2 of them which are the most friendly dogs you will see. Many people are amazed when they meet them as they believe that all pit bulls are mean and ready to tear out their throat.

Mel, I agree with your thought line that if you produce more, you should be paid more. JWS makes a good point of what happens when things go south. My concern of people that start off quick is that some of them will flame out by not progressing any further or having a not friendly demeanor. A possible solution to your situation, is either piece work pay or base plus bonus for exceeding goal. Either of those will be a problem for you if jobs and/or pricing takes a hit. But this is what the business has to deal with when giving out raises.

7/18/15       #15: Remuneration ...
JWS

Puzzleman,

For what it's worth I have a sister who was mauled by a pitbull that was "the sweetest little dog you'll ever meet".

When I was starting my business the neighbor had a doberman pincer he would let out for an unsupervised run after dinner each evening. This animal too was "the sweetest little dog you'll ever meet".......till it ripped the face off a 4 year old girl.

Unexploded ordnance sitting in your garage is also usually pretty safe.

Other than that I agree with most of what you say.

7/18/15       #16: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

Puzzleman

IMO the problem centers around exchange. The economy is propelled by it.

The definition of price discovery: Price discovery is the general process used in determining prices. These prices are dependent upon market conditions affecting supply and demand. For example, if the demand for a particular commodity is higher than its supply, the price will typically increase (and vice versa).

This mechanism sets the price and the focus of a culture.

As the culture moves away from price discovery because more and more things become subsidized by the government the entitlement mentality becomes more and more present.

It is a common phrase heard that you want to give the customer a little more than they paid for. This is all about exchange. A criminal wants to give you nothing in exchange, a lousy business like pretty much all Chinese goods give you broken or soon to be broken appliances, a good business gives you what you paid for, an excellent business gives you more than you paid for such as Apple or Fastcap or Toyota.

What is true for a company is true for an employee.

Yup it is a generalization but in my experience is true. The millennials are everything I have come to expect from years of government training...

The handful of excellent employees I have had over the years never focused on money.

I will give you that there is a natural attraction to do things with technology as it is more productive. I.E. a backhoe than a shovel. But that is different.

I think the willingness to work has been lost mostly by the growing scarcity of price discovery in the economy.

IMO Mel does not know what she does not know and has a lack of willingness to FIND OUT what that is... She knows all about it but she does not know it. In less than one week she goes from "I don't know if I can manage assemblers" to I want more money.

7/18/15       #17: Remuneration ...
Mel

JWS--very very good question!

I use to be a contractor. What I made always varied. Sometimes i would explicitely get told "I'm not making much on this one--you willing to do it for x$?" And sometimes i would because there was nothing else, and sometimes I would because I simply liked the person asking and wished to maintain a good relationship for fatter times.

So JWS--yes, hands down, I would take a pay cut in tough times. I have before and I would do it again. Or get laid off and go take a course of sorts till it gets busy again.

I'm not after the best pay, I'm after fair pay. Which is hard to know--every trade except for this one has averages per province online. Couldn't find anything for joiners. It's actually pretty hard info to obtain.

From Puzzleman: "My concern of people that start off quick is that some of them will flame out by not progressing any further or having a not friendly demeanor."

I had not thought of that. Thanks--that's really good info to know. I'm pretty hyper so it doesn't taper off--but they don't know that. Would 3 months be enough to tell?

I don't know about the US but here the general procedure is that you work 3 months then they decide if they want to keep you. You get a review, with salary adjustment if needed, and become eligable for benefits if applicable.

7/18/15       #18: Remuneration ...
Mel

Pat--misunderstanding. At no point have i said that "I want more money".

I will be having a beginer's review where salary will get discussed. I actually do need to think about this. I didn't ask for this review--it's standard.

7/18/15       #19: Remuneration ...
Puzzleman Member

Mel, Yes, 3 months is enough time to tell if the person if progressing. During your review I would suggest that you ask them where you can improve, what do they see you doing 6 months from now and help you with a plan to get there and improve deficiencies.

That kind of thinking of not thumping your chest and boasting but rather how can I improve would and has got my attention. The last person that did that is my second in command. I think even Pat would like an employee that did that.

7/18/15       #20: Remuneration ...
Mel

Puzzleman-- I will for sure be asking, exactly like that. That's a makes everyone happy way to do things I think. Thanks!

7/18/15       #21: Remuneration ...
CanadaTom

Hello all, long time lurker first time poster here. Could not keep my fingers off the keyboard.

There is a lot of talk about millennials, and I am one, barely, on the cusp of gen-X you could say. Half of my colleagues (all in sales/accounts for an established equipment manufacturer) are in their mid- to late- 40s, and half are my age. There is a distinct difference in the way the two groups approach wealth, leisure, and work. The older group still believes that a singular effort can be sufficient to acheive their desired position at work. They work hard, long hours, they take their customers golfing, they spend time to be that one resource to their customers, hoping to capitalize on the inside tracking those activities create. A performance similar to an ideal employee according to Sea444 or Pat. They have no life other than work, and when something goes sideways in the industry/economy they are hit hard.

Now millennials seem to have understood that there is no realistic way to acquire wealth at the rates that boomers have been able to. They value cooperation (both amongst themselves, and with the directors), resulting in a very neat system. Any one of us will take care of any other's accounts if needs be. We cross disciplines and have knowledge of each other's areas. When one of us takes a vacation, the others pick up the slack with no noticeable delays to our customers. We get paid a yearly salary and only work about 4-6 hours a day. But that is solid, cooperative, effective 4-6 hours.

I know that every one of us is worth what we're getting paid and more - the numbers don't lie. Our team also gets bonuses on sales above budget, but we asked for it to be differentially tied to the territorry against product line, so the more I sell, the bigger Johnny's bonus and vice versa. We are all tied. Curiously, the product lines of the group that is working less have better capitalization of the available market share than the other guys, who guard their accounts, especially multi-line and cross-territorial.

The primary reason for better performance, at least in my field, is the informal approach and value-added service. Not just value-added in terms of the features-and-benefits bullshit, but in terms of order-to-order flexibility and the knowledge base provided by leveraging the combined experience of a tight knit group selling different product to different customers in overlapping territories.

It's not too hard to see how that would be applied to your resources in manufacturing:
Task/project pay offsets based on margins
Flexible work schedule
Rotation of tasks
A pay multiplier based upon personal output

There is plenty of software out there that can track all that. If you can't find exactly what you need, you can hire a millennial to develop it for you -- they are pretty good with computers

And finally, to Sea444 -- your humans are your resources, and you are competing for them on an open market. Do you get 87 or 94 octane for your car? Probably 87, because if your car needed 94 you would realize the performance gains by using a superior resource in an environment designed to leverage its benefits. Or perhaps in the 45 years you were unable to build such an environment.

7/18/15       #22: Remuneration ...
Puzzleman Member

Hello Canada Tom.

You have my head spinning as to how your bonuses are done. You're talking to an older person. Can you give an example of cross territorial and whatever else it is that you said? I am always looking for new ideas but I need to be able to under stand.

Take it slow as I am of that older crowd.

7/18/15       #23: Remuneration ...
CanadaTom

Puzzleman,

Being older is not a sufficent condition for being slow!

We have two layers of sales -- geographically- (territory) based for commodities that we sell through distribution, and product-line-based for those specializing in project business and designed systems.

Specialists (i am one of those) take care of project business in several territories. Once the territory reaches last year's sales, regardless of whether it's project business or not, everyone gets some bonus. The salesman for that territory gets a little more, the specialist gets a little less, since project business is under 30% of commodities sales in our line of work. Once the project business hits last year's sales, combined across all territorries, everyone gets a little bonus, I get a little more. Same is repeated when we reach current year's budget, and repeated again on everything above the budget. Basically they take certain % of all sales above the budget and divide it by territory and project business per business unit.

It incentivises the sales reps to drive project business in their territory, as they get paid on the total number, as well as a cut of projects. As for the specialists, we are incentivised to drive commodity sales as our bonus number can easily go up due to the volumes of commodities that we can sell as part of the project, while taking advantage of the sales rep's efforts already in place, and sharing that profit.

Everyone gets a piece of the pie, but good performance in one's area of responsibility carries with itself a bigger piece. As a corollary, if one is not pulling their weight, everyone's numbers will go down, so it's in everyone's best interest to keep the orders moving.

I think it's a great idea to tie bonuses with a differential structure like this -- by line, or by market, or geographically. It opens lines to informal collaboration, it captures leads and results in a prompt followup, and keeps employees accountable to their peers.

I see no reason why a similar remuneration structure can't work for manufacturing, especially with more open-minded and leisure-centred workforce.

7/18/15       #24: Remuneration ...
JWSee

Canada Tom,

Your remuneration model would probably be a little easier to understand if we knew what your actual product was.

What exactly do you mean by "product-line-based for those specializing in project business and designed systems."? That sentence certainly is a mouthful but equally hard to digest.

Are most of the people in your system rewarded primarily on performance? To what extent do you think people self-select for this type of incentive system?

You couldn't get me to work for wages. The concept of showing up every day knowing exactly how it's going to end up would bore me tearless. On the other hand most of the people who have worked for me over the years would run like a rabbit if they had to absorb any risk. I don't think this is departure of attitude is linked to any particular demographic. I think entrepreneurial instinct is something you either have or don't have.

How would you develop a team centered incentive system using the type of people who actually work in hot dusty shops. I contend this is a different group than those who work in sales environments. While in theory the logic is simple enough I think it fruition depends on what the environment is and who the players are.

7/18/15       #25: Remuneration ...
Mel

Didn't know there was some sort of media hype going on about trashing millenials lately.

Explains a lot! Media pushed bandwagon. See beyond it. See video.

Millenials are the worst

7/18/15       #26: Remuneration ...
Mel

What the mature generation are thinking about boomers:

IT'S MIIIIIIIINNNNNNEEEEE!

7/18/15       #27: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

She said to question the narrative, ok I question hers.

She never once mentions the influence of government policies.

When I was in my early 20s I was an apprenticed union carpenter, I had worked in a restaurant, sold seeds, had had a newspaper route, mowed lawns, built kitchens on the side.

So no I do not compare to the typical millennial.

Sometimes in order to understand the micro you have to understand the macro.

I contend that the millennials could not get: lawn mowing jobs because the government subsidized illegal aliens took all of that work, same for busboys, newspapers gave way to adults who would actually do the work, same for construction work.

1/3 of the welfare in the United States goes to California, which has 13% of the population.

Another macro consideration is the offshoring of work to China, this was done by the Chinese exploiting the value of their money and poor US economic policy that allowed them to get away with it, the same occurred with Japan.

No matter what some of the work was going to go offshore but the problem was exacerbated by these policies.

These macro policies have an impact on individuals. Chinese citizens were once known as spendthrifts as were Germans this because of economic policies that affected their behavior today they are known for their frugality because of different government policies. Americans are known for being spendthrifts, up until 2007 that is, and this was absolutely brought about by government that encouraged spending.

This is a country that has 18 trillion dollars in debt, that is brought about by co-opting the citizens by buying them off through making money available for college education, housing, public union jobs, food-stamps, 99 weeks of unemployment benefits, section 8 housing, WIC, corporate welfare that if eliminated would balance the budget, medicare, etc.

So I question her narrative.

As you can see by the graph we have a problem.


View higher quality, full size image (732 X 461)

7/18/15       #28: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

"I see no reason why a similar remuneration structure can't work for manufacturing, especially with more open-minded and leisure-centred workforce."

I see a problem. Statistics for sales are very easy to generate, statistics for production are deceptively hard to generate.

Bonus programs for production are notorious for creating big time problems. Factories require everyone being there at the same time.

"And finally, to Sea444 -- your humans are your resources, and you are competing for them on an open market. Do you get 87 or 94 octane for your car? Probably 87, because if your car needed 94 you would realize the performance gains by using a superior resource in an environment designed to leverage its benefits. Or perhaps in the 45 years you were unable to build such an environment."

That is a very flippant assertion to someone who has made payroll for over 4 decades. Have you ever made payroll? It would seem to me that there is an outside chance that he has something to say?

Not to say that the younger generation does not bring a fresh point of view, that is not invested in the status quo, OTOH why disrespect people who are respectable?

7/18/15       #29: Remuneration ...
Mel

"When I was in my early 20s I was an apprenticed union carpenter, I had worked in a restaurant, sold seeds, had had a newspaper route, mowed lawns, built kitchens on the side.

So no I do not compare to the typical millennial."

I've had a newspaper route, I've been a line cook in a restaurant, I've been a fruit picker, I've been a chimney sweeper, a landscaper, done rubbish removal, and I've been a scaffolder. I've hitch-hiked across the country solo with 100$ in my pocket. I've been a street kid, but I've also been a university student. Everything I've ever done beyond basic necessities as a child was funded by this working back. No hand outs, from either family or govt.

If you think every millennial was raised being told they were special, and got drove around to expensive extracurricular activities in SUVs you sure as heck haven't seen my parent's house.

Typify me if you want, but I think we'll have way more fun cracking the tough questions holding our industry back against China-mades.

7/18/15       #30: Remuneration ...
Mel

"why disrespect people who are respectable?"

Dude--really?????? You, of all people, are speaking against addressing others disrespectfully?????

7/18/15       #31: Remuneration ...
JWS

Mel,

There is a difference between brusque and disrespect. You haven't been on the forum long enough to recognize this as the kinder & gentler Pat. PG V.2 has not yet said anything to you that you should construe as disrespectful.

If you parse his language closely you will see he has been nothing but helpful and constructive with his criticism. You should offer to wash his car every time he opines to your benefit.

7/19/15       #32: Remuneration ...
Mel

Lol JWS-- I have close to offered to wash his car. This man has received much open praise from me. He's changed my life for the good and has been thanked and told so on more then one occasion.

Recently tho it's some weird screw millenials monolgue. It sucks. I'm going to say it out loud. Because it's what he would do.

7/19/15       #33: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

You did imply that you wanted more money.

Since you have had your dialogue expunged, I cannot see what you actually said.

7/19/15       #34: Remuneration ...
CanadaTom

JWS -- i am an engineer who has moved from field work onto sales. We sell process control/automation hardware and software, as well as associated commodities across many industries, including wood processing. Most of my product lines when applied to wood processing end up in sawmills, plywood plants, etc.

Of course you can apply that model in a production line -- all that has to happen is task tracking by project and task. We are on base + commission, the same can be applied to any production line. If one was to benchmark a task and offer a performance bonus for doing better than said benchmark, and vary that bonus based upon the margin on the project, everyone would be fairly compensated and motivated. Furthermore link eveyone's bonuses to actual project performance and you have an incentive to cooperate.

As to the flexibility of hours -- run a few shifts, let people swing with sufficient notice -- makes life (doctors appointments, shopping, kids, etc) a lot easier. I had 3 shifts going in a particularily difficult run of a certain document control project for close to a year; there were 8 stations, 2 people per station. They were free to trade shifts, tasks, etc., pay was not assigned to a person, but to a task. Never had any problems, and the tasks were simple, like scanning, copying, stamping, data entry, shredding, delivery. And the labour pool was pretty much 80% millenials, with about 20% other. The flexibility made up for the nature of work, everyone was happy. We wrapped up the project 4 months ahead of schedule with 600K to spare.

Pat -- two comments

Respect is earned on personal, not temporal, bases. Just because someone claims to have been around for 45 years doesn't make them good at what they do, nor does it make them automatically respectable, especially when that person is disrespectful themselves towards their employees. There are many work environments where employees are both well-paid and appreciated, if in 45 years this business owner has not ever seen such an environment then perhaps a fundamental misunderstanding of the human species is to blame. Making payroll for 45 years is mechanics Pat, what's left in the wake?

As to your comment on not being like the typical millennial in your 20s -- i absolutely agree. At 20 I was a junior software developer paying my way through university; then i worked in change management, implementing the transition to electronic medical records across a chain of clinics and hospitals; I had contracts in claims resolution for the government providing software to aid in legal discovery. So you are right, the two of us (even if you were 33 at the moment) are nothing alike. I have never had to "pay my dues" in an industry, I have never had to take a job I did not want, and I have never been disrespected for being young, or for being a student, which seems to be very common in trades. Neither have any of my peers. I think it is logical to assume that you, on the other hand, have never had to deal with extreme diversities in the demographic composition of your employees, you never had to train groups of people twice or three times your age on a system they hate because they are resistant to change, and you never had the pleasure of seeing those same people light up and realize how much weight a flexible and dynamic workplace lifted off their shoulders.

Here's the kicker -- millennials expect those systems to be in place. Times have changed: humans are a resource and you don't mine the resource the same way forever. We used to be able to stick a pipe into the ground and have pressurized crude pump itself into the barrel. Now we have horizontal drilling with hydraulic fracturing. There is no more easy oil; there are no more easy employees. Well, there are some it seems, but from what i read here they are running out.

Mel -- in my opinion the most important attribute of an employee, and the one that gets most rewarded in a modern workplace, is agility, that is being able to change tasks quickly and address the bottleneck at hand. It sounds simple, but so many people have difficulty doing that

7/19/15       #35: Remuneration ...
Mel

First off-before anyone gets held up in madness, let me affirm again that I adore the crap outta ya, Mr Pat.

Said I don't know what to do with the salary adjustment portion of the 3-month review.

That I tend to just get paid what I get paid and later find out I got ripped off because I never asked for more.

Did you know that unequal pay amongst gender stats disappear when you control for asking for more? Women don;t get paid less because society is evil, women get paid less because they don't negotiate pay. I don't want to be one of those women.

So when it comes time for the salary discussion, I want to be ready. Not ready to ask for the moon, but just ready, as in knowing what is fair and what is not.

I'm wishing for help. I have a hard time seeing help when the dialogue is aggressive. Help me and I'll use it.

7/19/15       #36: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

"Making payroll for 45 years is mechanics Pat, what's left in the wake? "

Clearly you have never made one...

"As to your comment on not being like the typical millennial in your 20s -- i absolutely agree."

Yup but in neither case is there any entitlement.

As to the other, spare me the war stories. but it is a lot different when you are the one making payroll.

"Now we have horizontal drilling with hydraulic fracturing "

Fracking has been around since the late 40s.

Yet you did not address the points I made...

Yea I'm the one who has a tude alright...

7/19/15       #37: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

"Did you know that unequal pay amongst gender stats disappear when you control for asking for more?"

Did you know that the whole unequal pay thing for women is a meme? Yup that's right when women work the same number of years as men they actually make slightly more.

The reason for the difference is that women have a propensity toward working fewer years and hours, because of child rearing and because when they take years off they fall behind in technology skills, this and they just tend to work fewer hours. This is an economic fact. So lose the chip on your shoulder.

"Said I don't know what to do with the salary adjustment portion of the 3-month review."

"So when it comes time for the salary discussion, I want to be ready. Not ready to ask for the moon, but just ready, as in knowing what is fair and what is not."

Splain me how this works.

7/19/15       #38: Remuneration ...
Mel

Chip on my shoulder? How so? I'm asking a question, you are inferring a motive. It's not because you know how things work that I do. And I'm asking. Answer or don't. Personal attacks are useless.

""So when it comes time for the salary discussion, I want to be ready. Not ready to ask for the moon, but just ready, as in knowing what is fair and what is not."

Splain me how this works."

Actually, that is exactly what I am asking you. Last time I checked, I don't make those rules, but you do. Share the info?

7/19/15       #39: Remuneration ...
CanadaTom

Pat --

You have missed the point. Let me clarify:

a) the "war stories" or as I like to call them "case studies" were meant for those who are looking at the subject of this conversation, being remuneration. Remuneration does not refer exclusively to wages, but includes benefits and working conditions.

b) At no time did I suggest that your "tude" was any further than one standard deviation away from the mean in either direction

c) You are misunderstanding my use of simile. A lot of things were around in the 40s, yet a lot of them were not widely adapted until economic and societal pressures made them acceptable and viable. And some were around but went away since the 40s. This forum's guidelines prevent me from drawing more similes.

d) I have addressed both your points. Please refer to my previous post. One had to do with apparent disrespect, and the other one with performance metrics. I have addressed both. Let me elaborate on teh second one: your statement "I see a problem. Statistics for sales are very easy to generate, statistics for production are deceptively hard to generate" is false. Statistics are super easy to generate. They *may* be difficult to interpret if you don't know what you're measuring.

7/19/15       #40: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

"c) You are misunderstanding my use of simile. A lot of things were around in the 40s, yet a lot of them were not widely adapted until economic and societal pressures made them acceptable and viable. And some were around but went away since the 40s. This forum's guidelines prevent me from drawing more similes. "

And you missed mine, all technology is built on previous technology. Patents are more of a legal charade that reality.

statistics for production are deceptively hard to generate

"is false. Statistics are super easy to generate. They *may* be difficult to interpret if you don't know what you're measuring."

Sure they are, have you done it? Are you versed in ERP/MRP software, production scheduling. Are you trying to imply six sigma is relevant to a cabinet shop? And most of all that they demonstrate not only correlation but causation, that is useful to management? Additionally the notion that one factor or worker can be isolated is dubious.

7/19/15       #41: Remuneration ...
Mel

"There is a difference between brusque and disrespect. You haven't been on the forum long enough to recognize this as the kinder & gentler Pat. PG V.2 has not yet said anything to you that you should construe as disrespectful."

This keeps jiggling around in the noggin since I read it. I gotta ask--where exactly do you differentiate brusque from disrespectful? Brusque answers a question. Disrespectful attacks the poster.

I'm always willing to allow for poor manners/good person, but sometimes, you get left wondering. Why leave a person wondering? JWS--you somehow answer a question without insulting the poster. Is it really so hard to do?

Stupid millennial.... well stupid boomer. There. Good conversation, right? Where exactly did this get anyone?

It's useless. It's not even fun banter. It gets nobody anywhere.

7/19/15       #42: Remuneration ...
CanadaTom

Uhm, Pat, where are you going with this? You don't also own a vineyard in Napa per chance do you?

I am not only versed in ERP, i have developed custom ERP systems when I was a software engineer -- in fact customizing ERP is just about the only good job left for software developers, unless they are with a big tech employer (more on that later), and that experience is exactly why i am confident in my assertion that human resources in a millwork shop are measurable and manageable... In fact I have read posts where you have mentioned that accurate measurement is necessary to improve bottom line. How does that not apply to your human resources? And of course you can isolate a human -- do your employees not clock in by job/batch/task? that's pretty standard these days, not only in manufacturing, but also in offices. Have you ever gotten a bill from a law office? 6-minute increments and every piece of paper accounted for, and a lot of those bastards have 100+ staff running 20-hour days.

Patents? How'd we get here? We're talking about resources, human variety to be exact. Can't patent that, not even the application of human resources.

Six sigma? This thread is not about QA, I am fairly certain of that. If you choose to use your metrics for QA/QC even better, but that has nothing to do with paying people a wage that follows their performance and providing a work environment that is conducive to doing things people like.

Look, there is a reason younger people are not going into trades. They would rather work for your northern neighbours in Silicon Valley. That reason is working enviornment. The job of an average entry-level coder in a Google cubicle is not that different from the person running your edgebander. The difference is how that job is packaged and how those skills are leveraged.

7/19/15       #43: Remuneration ...
Robert

Mel & CanadaTom,
Whether you can see it or not you are proving Pat correct.

Mel, you've been very disrespectful and full of personal attacks. You've been the aggressor in this. He's trying to help you. Chill out a little bit. You've got a lot to offer this forum. You are well liked but you've got to grow some thicker skin and not be a hypocrite of asking others to not speak gritty while reserving the right for yourself. I for one enjoy your posts but you've gone off the rails on this.

CanadaTom,
It might be your first time posting but the fellow you are going after was running a successful business before you were born. Posting here, helping others, before you entered the workforce. Think about that for a second.

You've never been on the otherside of the fence. You may be good at what you do but you don't know crap about running a business - which entails a lot of working together, sacrifice for your employees, giving and giving and giving. What he said does not mean he treats his employees badly. You might do well to realize you've got a lot to learn. I do appreciate your thoughts on the bonuses but you make some wild accusations that are a little hard to not laugh out loud about- not that the boomers don't have their faults and they do run deep in places- but to not notice your generations is almost laughable. You come across like a second or third generation business owner. You don't realize what you've been handed because it was given to you. Do you honestly think this country, or even your business was created by working 4-6 hours a day with great teamwork. No, both were created working 14 hour days with great teamwork and sacrifice you've never imagined let alone done.

You've got some great insights but stay in your lane and get some perspective. Pat & Sea have forgotten more than you know. Stick around please, it is good to have you.

Man, I remember when I was that cocky...

7/19/15       #44: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

" i am confident in my assertion that human resources in a millwork shop are measurable and manageable... "

This forum is mostly job shops. IMO the information created by ERP software applies best to work that is repetitive in nature as in long runs.

When you try to apply the minutiae to custom work like a reception desk or a nurses station or cash wrap, not only is it almost impossible to do, it does not accurately predict the amount of time required to do the job. Because the amount of setup time for calculating complex shapes for cutting and assembly and laminating far exceeds any other part of the job.

"In fact I have read posts where you have mentioned that accurate measurement is necessary to improve bottom line."

Yup but it depends on the unit of measure.

"And of course you can isolate a human -- do your employees not clock in by job/batch/task?"

It depends on the task, the quantity of the task, the machine, how much work is in the shop, whether or not target times were made clear, how motivated the individual is, etc

"that's pretty standard these days, not only in manufacturing, but also in offices.
Have you ever gotten a bill from a law office? 6-minute increments"

That is a waste, tracking the time at a minutiae level on custom work. The unit of measure has to be larger, once you have the times established for the macro tasks it is more accurate to use those. And the repetitive tasks are quite predictable and there for spending time on them is superfluous.

"and every piece of paper accounted for, and a lot of those bastards have 100+ staff running 20-hour days."

Do you know what is black and brown and looks really good on a lawyer?

A Doberman Pinscher

"Patents? How'd we get here? We're talking about resources, human variety to be exact. Can't patent that, not even the application of human resources."

You were implying that the advancement of technology was attributable to the current generation. I stated that technology builds on what is extant. The Wright brothers stultified advancement in flight technology for years because of their patents, even though much of their technology was a mixture of other's efforts.

"Six sigma? This thread is not about QA, I am fairly certain of that. If you choose to use your metrics for QA/QC even better, but that has nothing to do with paying people a wage that follows their performance and providing a work environment that is conducive to doing things people like."

Not hardly, I don't know of any woodworking businesses using it. However most use some degree of TPS/Lean. Which is the antithesis of Six Sigma regarding statistics.

"Look, there is a reason younger people are not going into trades. They would rather work for your northern neighbours in Silicon Valley. That reason is working enviornment. The job of an average entry-level coder in a Google cubicle is not that different from the person running your edgebander. The difference is how that job is packaged and how those skills are leveraged. "

I agree to some degree. My grandfather became a water well driller because he was enamored with the new technology of digging a well with a drilling rig. This a natural thing, would you rather dig a ditch with a shovel or a backhoe.

But you and Mel appear to be, as most are, oblivious to the influence of government policy on people's values. Which I contend is the unseen influence.

7/19/15       #45: Remuneration ...
Mel

Robert, are you really telling me that I have dished out more then I have received on this forum?

This is the point where I stop and smile and think about how strange your cohort is to me. And I see that it's a mutual feeling.

In a lot of ways we couldn't have more different backgrounds. Probably why it's all so interesting in the end.

So when I read, things like "shut up" and "typical millennial" I'm being told I need to trust that this person is coming from a good place? Okay, you know what, I'll give it a go. I really don't get it, but I'll try it.

7/19/15       #46: Remuneration ...
CanadaTom

Robert --

You make a good point. I have not had to run a business for 3+ decades, and by no means am i saying that it's easy to do. And yes, perhaps Sea and Pat forgot more than I have ever learned, but I have also learned things they have not had a chance to get exposed to, and got good at them. Besides things they forgot, were probably not useful anymore, otherwise they wouldn't have forgotten them, right? This actually speaks to my point.

And yes my attitude towards work is fundamentally different, which is why I posted here, because i think the employment practices in wood processing shops are out of date, which makes working in a such a shop barely worth it for young people. I have a fascination with wood processing, i have family in the industry, and i want the industry to do well. But the old-timer attitudes drive youth away.

I have to re-iterate my opinion, and please do not take this personally: the amount of time someone spent doing something has no bearing on whether what they are doing is a good fit at present. The current value of your investment into a venture should have no bearing on your future investment into same venture.

I speak my mind. Perhaps you find my opinion ignorant, which is fine. I am ignorant to a lot of aspects of this life. But process control, employment practices, and resource planning are not on that list. Funny you say "sacrifice for your employees ... giving (x3)" i could not infer that from Sea's post AT ALL. Probably due to my ignorance

Nothing got handed to me. I started out in life with substantial student debt, much like many of my peers had to (something to keep in mind about the generation). I was raised by a single mother who worked for wages and could not help me financially, and i had no other family to speak of. And no, i never had to sacrifice much leisure, or work 14-hour days because i HAD to (maybe a couple times, at project close, yeah, i admit). And i do not view these things as accomplishments at all. In fact I, and many of my peers, view those times when i/we had to catch up by setting other things aside, as, quite frankly, an oversight, an error, and nothing to be proud of.

I might very well be out of my lane (i often am in fact! i didn't get to where I am by blindly following the set of taillights ahead of me), but my perspective tells me you might still be traveling down a dirt road. Both roads may lead to the same destination, but one is better done on a dirt bike, the other in a car. So yes, i do challenge the way shop owners view their human resources. Absolutely. I think shop employment practices in many cases are out of date and changing too slowly.

Pat --

Yes, everything we have is built on previous knowledge. The earth was flat, now it's an axially compressed sphere. Does the fact that the earth was flat help us calculate a satellite orbit? Hardly...

Some things just stop working, and no amount of experience in doing things the way that is no longer feasible will make those things feasible again. Employment in shop environments is headed in that direction.

I agree custom tasks are harder to track, but not all of the work out there is custom. Regardless of the metrics and math behind it, is it really that hard to share some of the margin with those who perform well? not once a year at xmas, but a bit on every check. Yes you might have to drive your base wage down, but as long as you are putting the same amount into your staff there should be incentive to perform. And if project performance is linked to that extra pay, positive peer pressure will be created. Throw in at least one choice of shift, and you have an environment set up that has at least a couple self-regulating feedback loops. And they love you for profit sharing. This is how young talent is retained these days.

I think it was you who said that the best employees you had didn't care for money. It is still the case, except instead of "doing an excellent job" the intrinsic motivation is shifting to "maintain my lifestyle, while doing something I like". Plenty of people think woodworking is a "cool thing to do", there is a way to cash in on it.

If you want to talk metrics/process mapping etc, i'd be happy to. Perhaps in a different thread though? But then again you guys have beaten the Lean horse to the final stages of decomp here. I think that some methodologies of 6S are useful in Lean -- it's not because the standard exists that it should be adopted in its entirety.

Mel -- how does your shop track custom tasks? I gather they are quite successful. how flexible are they in terms of opening earlier/closing later to accommodate project requirements?

7/19/15       #47: Remuneration ...
Mel

"Mel -- how does your shop track custom tasks? I gather they are quite successful. how flexible are they in terms of opening earlier/closing later to accommodate project requirements"

Aww man, my guys are amazing!! Their outfit is prestigious, and their custom dept downright blows my mind away. Actually, the whole operation blows my mind away. There is so much talent in those buildings. Couldn't be prouder and honored to get to be there. All thanks to WoodWeb.

Okay, so I'll try to give a breakdown on their tracking.

Employees are responsible for logging in to what they do. Lead hands revise to make sure tracking was adequate. Weekly meeting give feedback on tracking errors and how to avoid them.

Depts:
-finishing
-machining
-assembly
-custom
-solid wood processing

There must be around 15 categories for tasks, along the lines of assembly, custom, machining, general clean-up, f-ups, meetings, etc. Then there are sub categories of exactly what you are doing, physically.

Some things in custom get more general, but by dividing tasks into wider categories and having a f-up log-in divided by type of f-up, you start seeing pretty fast your problematic areas.

These logs link to their billing system--different tasks have different dollar values. Although contracts are signed and you got into what you got into, this info gives them an accurate picture of how much they estimated, what actually happened, and where they over or undershot. For next time.

Their office has the IT guy regulating all this, drafters, project managers, purchasers, accounting and surprisingly very little sales. Most of their business is from being on architect specifications on repeat trust.

As for hours--you can come anytime if it makes sense. If you need to do something that will tie up one of the 2 altendorfs, and so does someone else, one may come at night with a helper to leave the saw free for the daystaff.

People with children and complicated schedules can come in super early and leave early to let their later working wives go to work.

Last Thursday they had an employee appreciation lunch, where they handed out random unexpected bonuses. They finished their end of year accounting and decided to throw something back to everybody. Just like that.

Oh and side work in the shop is encouraged. 10% handling fee.

That's what I got for now. Just scratching the surface. Asking lots of questions to the ol dogs over afterwork beers. Over the moon about all of them--kind kind souls with heaps of know-how and desire to share. And fun after work to boot :)

7/19/15       #48: Remuneration ...
JWS

Interesting that your company measures qty of f-up divided by "type" of f-up. Would seem like similar "types" of f-ups have similar types of solutions.

What are the possible types f-ups in your chart of accounts?

7/19/15       #49: Remuneration ...
Mel

Can't remember all the f up subgroupings off hand, but I do remember things like drawing mistakes, machining errors, assembly mistakes, material defects... Not that wording, and I know there are more... i'll check again on Monday. Pretty good idea though it seems to me!

Won't lie though--implementation takes a ton of constant training. I think it's worth it and so do they. Workers don't always get the why but they all eventually learn to just do it.

7/19/15       #50: Remuneration ...
JWS

Some possible accounts for f-ups might be:

Excessive Waiting
Excessive Transport
Inappropriate processing (4 screws when 3 would do)
Mistakes (3 screws when 4 are needed)
Training
Operator spacing out if all else is in place

Etc.

Similar types of mistake call for similar solutions. Reduce the number of decisions.

All this seems like an unnecessary distraction until you realize that a paradigm that focuses on process improvement can make more money in the boom times and stay alive in the not so boom times.

7/19/15       #51: Remuneration ...
CanadaTom

Mel, JWS --

This tells me that detailed metrics are being implemented within this industry, and at least somewhat applied to remuneration. Now if one was to take it one step further and actually tie one's pay to their performance as a base+bonus structure. The data is there.

For instance, even in a custom environment, let's assume that cut lists and material waste are managed by the designer/draftsman, as is the case in many establishments.

A thought then: it should be easy to multiply the material quantity by the number of cuts from CAD (or total length of the toolpath on a CNC) and enter into the system as a task on a project. This would arrive to a decent approximation of total work required for breakout. Other variables should more or less cancel each other out, assuming that one always stores their 5/8 G1S maple veneer in the same place, etc, etc. Scale curved cuts up. Divide by time spent, get output per person for that task. Put that on bell curve a few times, let it settle.. You now know how one is performing, regardless of the project assuming your quality standards are consistent (but you can account for that too, by task).

Now that you have it on a curve introduce a control input such as a performance bonus (indexed to the position on the curve). One would expect to see the standard deviation tightening up. Human factor would push the data to tighten up on the lower end, because less work for bonus.

This is where the the margin of the project upon completion gets scaled in, on, say a segment of a quadratic, or another fitting function that grows slowly at first but picks up quick after a certain point. Would be fair to only account for the margin gained through time & material. So then the result of that is shared as a bonus based upon the position on the curve.

There would thus be an increasing incentive to not only do better as an individual, but also to make a good margin by not wasting time and material, as the benefits are disproportionally incremental up to a boundary.

It seems to me that mated surface area over time (scaled for curves) can be used as a metric for assembly, and easy to calculate using the cad drawings. I'm also sure that one could come up with metrics for lamination, hardwoods, etc. They don't need to be all-encompassing, just representivie of the complexity of the task. Tablesaw operations are linear, but assembly of crown detail is not, so scale that task on a non-linear, by counting every line segment on the drawing that is at an angle to the axis on your "crown" layer in CAD.

All this can be monitored in real-time off a plant manager's ipad. The technology is there, the software is there.

This would also react to the lean years, and the fat years, as the margins increase or shrink.

Of course it may be more complicated than that, but maybe not? If a base pay is in place and the bonus structure accounts for under 20% of their take-home, perhaps coarse is OK? Regression towards the mean shall take care of a bunch of it.

Anyhow, i think a system like this would address Mel's remuneration problem. Adjust for inflation annualy on base, vary the bonus portion of total pay according to the position and time spent building (foreman vs worker for instance), vary base pay by task. Nobody has to guess that way.

I know it's a bit of work, but that is how, say, a franchisee's fees are calculated by the head office in restaurant industry -- the complexity of recipes and margins made on each ingredient from each supplier are taken into account. Staff performance and costs are counted, seat fill rates, % of syrup in their fountain drinks, daylight harvesting savings on the energy bill, everything. One such system I saw reported daily across 2000+ restaurants from Mexico to Alaska. Problems were noticed early and rectified quickly. This was 7 years ago, and by now there is a mature offering of software that does not cost an arm and a leg, mostly due to millenial startups and cost erosion on the programmer's salaries.

7/19/15       #52: Remuneration ...
Robert

Mel,
That is exactly what I'm saying on THIS post, I don't know about others. I've only followed half a dozen of them. You've attacked personally with no call for it. He's trying to toughen you up and teach you something you don't yet know, no matter how spunky, energy filled and capable you are there is more to learn. And one of the things I like about you is that in general you know this, except when it got away from skills and capabilities and down to who you were as a person. Those are not easy criticisms to take- I've taken a few here over the years. Some were true, many were false- but I learned either way. If you are capable of that good- because you are about to find out in what I say next.

I think it has maybe a little to do with your generation but more to due with your gender. Stick with me and before I say a lick more let me say that some of the best folks I've ever known come from every race, creed, age, gender, religion and country. But generalities, there is some truth to them even when it does not apply to specifics.

So here's my point. In today's culture most ladies today don't realize they are allowed to speak their mind and be gritty, but don't allow the same in return. You came across that way in this post. It's possible that you are the exception, just like if you were to ask me you show much better work ethic than most of your generation. But it's also possible you've never realized this. But even if this is not you, you have to realize that most men know this. It's a fact of life that you can't speak to a lady like she speaks to you no matter how rude or attacking she gets. So even if the shoe doesn't fit you, you need to realize it's a reality you have to overcome or deal with. You've chosen to work among men and I will agree that we have to make concessions and clean up our act but you've got to toughen up also. You can't attack while screaming about being attacked- well, you probably can, that's my point. But it ain't right and to be honest you are better than that. Yes, there are times it's okay to be told to shut up, you're young and don't know everything. It's something men learn quite early and often. While we might respond with an FU, we figure out real quick not to whine about it.

Alright, now that I've broken every PC rule in the book I want to encourage you. You've got what it takes. Keep asking the good questions. If nothing else you've sure livened this place up. Woodweb should put you on their payroll. I haven't seen this much meat or excitement in years. Keep up the good work.

CanadaTom,
I mean this in the best of ways and not as an attack in the least- you come across as a trust fund kid. You don't even realize, no matter your upbringing, what you've been handed. The sacrifices made by others are what allow you, currently- and only currently- to do what you do. Get back to me in ten years. You'll be singing a different tune.

It's not personal. You seem like a great guy and a hell of a salesman. Thanks for chiming in and sharing your knowledge with us. I found it informative even if I didn't agree with a portion of it.

7/19/15       #53: Remuneration ...
Mel

"He's trying to toughen you up and teach you something you don't yet know"

Jeebus!! That's it? Hahah... I hope you folks find this as amusing as I do.... I had no idea. I've been seriously wondering for a while now "what's this guy's problem?" (sorry Pat!)

Seriously, thanks for spelling it out for me, because I did not have a single clue. I think things are different in person. I've been in man land for about a decade now, but I tend to get way nicer behaviour face to face. Or at least see something that lets me know the rough is well intentioned and know it's okay to go with it.

You guys are so complicated!

7/19/15       #54: Remuneration ...
Robert

Mel,
Things are much different online vs. real person. This has been a hard lesson to learn for me. In real life I interact with all kinds of people, can't think of a single person who would have anything truly negative to say about me. And most would speak extremely positive. I treat folks with respect and generosity, and in the SHTF moments that come in life and things get tough or you have to get a little gritty (or they with you) with somebody you have a track record, a relationship and the future interactions to continue treat each other respectfully and generously.

Online though (including here), I've been called satan more times than I'd like. People reduce you to a sentence or two, a belief or two, and peg you in their mind without seeing the charachter, life and nuisances behind it. They've already figured out right and wrong and peg you accordingly. If we would have met in real life we would at least been able to treat each other respectably, and likely been able to come to an understanding-if not friendship- but that gets eliminated online.

There are folks who are out to get you. Pat ain't one of them. He's got a long track record here. Some won't agree with his politics. Some may think he needs a vacation to relax a little. But without a doubt he's out to help, while challenging your thinking in the process. I get him because I get similar responses.

Some of my best and most loyal clients have been folks other folks told me were prickly and even warned me against. Pure gold though. Some of my worst spoke pure flowers and sunshine and would stick a knife in your back the minute you turned it. Just because someone speaks plainly and brusk, trust me, most of them just don't have the time or will to waste time on the pleasantries of blowing smoke up your....but they are good folks who are more than willing to help you and treat you fair.

Keep up the good work. Glad you found a position you like and are excelling at. Good employees are extremely hard to come by- it's hard to not like and respect someone who brings that kind of energy and dedication to the job.

7/19/15       #55: Remuneration ...
JWSee

Gotta go with Robert on this one Mel.
You do lead with your chin sometimes.

7/19/15       #56: Remuneration ...
Sea444

Interesting debate, but it is ovious which individuals can walk the walk and who is just BSing. No production based business was ever successfully developed by the owner working 4-6 hours a day. Unlike some of the intellectual creators that most millennialist think they are, in a production based operation such as wood working, we owners only get paid for what goes out the door. While, the average employee is merely occupying time and space while looking for an easier job, with more creature comforts, more pay, and less production requirements. Having dealt with many employees over the years, good ones are few and far between. Business owners will pretty much do what it takes to keep a good worker happy. It doesn't take a lot to be a good employee, just getting to work on time, 5 days a week goes a long way in my book.

The millennial generation as a whole (not all) tend to be lazy, irresponsible, and careless. Look around those of you who are over 50. Think of what you were doing at 25, and look at the kids of today. We were generally married, had a mortgage, couple of kids, finished college, served in the military and in many cases starting or already established a business. Today's kids by age 30 are still living off their parents dime, driving cars they can't afford, complaining about their $200k in school loans for the sociology degree, dodging some gal chasing them for child support, and bitching that their boss doesn't appreciate them enough....well those who have a job.

With all the globalization and cheap foreign labor that has gone on the past 25 years it is a lot harder to make a decent profit for everyone. I would suggest that some of those writing here go out and start their own business....then get back to us in 5 years and tell us your story. I'll bet it changes.

7/19/15       #57: Remuneration ...
Mel

Oh Robert is 100% on the money.

Thanks again Rob, you make sense to me. And you took the time, out of good will.

So I actually had to look up "leading with the chin". Yes, yes I do. I know that for sure. I stand by it though.

I think that life is full of people having the same problems/sentiments. But nobody puts anything out on the table out of pride/shame. So everyone repeats the same mistakes over and over again.

I ask anyone anything. It gets me more then it costs me. And I'm okay being the young moron running full throttle up the hill for all to see. How about I work on my poker face in a decade or two? Then hopefully some other young moron can entertain us while we nod in agreement?

7/19/15       #58: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

"Regardless of the metrics and math behind it, is it really that hard to share some of the margin with those who perform well? not once a year at xmas, but a bit on every check. Yes you might have to drive your base wage down, but as long as you are putting the same amount into your staff there should be incentive to perform. And if project performance is linked to that extra pay, positive peer pressure will be created. Throw in at least one choice of shift, and you have an environment set up that has at least a couple self-regulating feedback loops. And they love you for profit sharing. This is how young talent is retained these days. "

I tried for years first with a relational data base a friend of mine was good at which resulted in the workers gaming the system.

My friend who has a clothing company then advanced his company to using a robotic mover made by Gerber, he then downloaded the data produced by the Gerber into his data base and was able to produce individual stats and a system for bonuses.

It was quite an impressive system with parametric design and quick turnaround. They made warm up suits for sports teams. He told me that the Lakers came to them needing suits within a matter of days with very unusual body types, but because he was setup on a parametric basis it was not a problem. After quite a few years they realized that the workers were gaming the system costing them plenty. And they ended up abandoning the whole setup.

I was quite enamored with the idea and set out to find the holy grail of individual statistics and bonuses on a weekly basis. So I bought an ERP program and implemented it and made it work for about 7 or 8 year, except it really never produced the prediction I wanted to have. So I dumped it. Except for basic job costing.

Before you throw out another flippant answer know that my friend has been using this relational data base for decades and the ERP program I was using had thousands of users.

My conclusion is that it is just not worth it.

7/19/15       #59: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

CanadaTom

Post 51 sounds plausible, but it will not work. It is all about the unit of measure. CNC is measured by the sheet. Custom is by the product/item. The lineal ft stuff needs setup time, the curved stuff doesn't take a whole lot longer that the straight stuff when you have it dialed. Then you have to enter in economies of scale.

7/19/15       #60: Remuneration ...
Mel

"I tried for years first with a relational data base a friend of mine was good at which resulted in the workers gaming the system"

Dang... that's pretty disheartening. No good deed goes unpunished eh?

How did they do it, if you don't mind my asking?

7/20/15       #61: Remuneration ...
Larry

Classifying people by age is outright stupid! Measuring performance is damn hard unless maybe it is sales. An organization needs to be a cooperative process, the more cooperative, the more productive, usually. Pay is certainly important, but not the end-all to motivation. Would someone define "fair" for me? Mathematically "fair", #'s don't lie, sort of.

Many people running a business are risk takers, a form of gambling. Very few employees want to take on any risk. From a very bad experience with profit sharing and 30 years at this business, no one wants to take a pay hit when s--t hits the fan.

For those that haven't seen my experience with profit sharing and would like to know, e-mail me.
We use a different system now, random bonuses, totally unfair, totally subjective, can not be counted on to be pre-spent.

7/20/15       #62: Remuneration ...
JWS

Larry is right about this one.

Raising hourly pay is usually only a motivator till end of the afternoon. For some reason after they sleep on it they conclude that the bump in pay is because "they are worth" it and you are only paying them on the margin of their contribution.

A $500 bonus, however, gets noticed by the wife and the whole value proposition is looked at differently.

Paying people based on "experience" is ridiculous. Not a single one of our customers gives us a dime for our pedigree.

7/20/15       #63: Remuneration ...
Riggles Member

Been following this thread with interest. (Backgrounder: 40 something wage slave carpenter; have worked in door/window factory in the past. Have occasionally built furniture and cabinets and inevitably underestimated the job.)

From @JWS:
"Raising hourly pay is usually only a motivator till end of the afternoon. For some reason after they sleep on it they conclude that the bump in pay is because "they are worth" it and you are only paying them on the margin of their contribution."

JWS, you might be right, but I have to point out the demotivational aspect of a person feeling like they're being underpaid. Even a couple of bucks an hour of perceived unfairness can make someone walk. (And you might be saying, "don't let the door hit you on the way out", but the cost of hiring/training/etc isn't trivial.) Even if they don't walk, their attitude might not be, "what can I do to make this business more profitable?" (ie, thinking like an owner); rather a more self centered one ("what's in my best interest right now?")

One other random thought that's crossed my mind through this conversation is the idea of risk. It's been implied that all the risk is carried by the owner; however, when times are bad and I don't work, I don't get paid. That constitutes a certain level of risk in my world. (I remember fondly one general I worked for that would have us working full time, all the time, no matter what his pipeline looked like.)

7/20/15       #64: Remuneration ...
Mel

Robert--sometimes something looks good at face value for me, then a day later or more, I think of something else. This is one of those moments.

So if things like shut up and stupid millennial are meant to teach and toughen up, but standing up to it is going off the rails, it smells of double standard. I may be wrong, but the smell is strong. So I want to ask.

Is it possible that people here who are business owners, feel entitled to beat down on an employee type and feel like reciprocation is unjustified?

No one here is my owner. And I am no one's employee. We are all just words on a page. You're not the hand that feeds me--you're people outputting opinions on how being the hand that feeds someone else is like. And this is golden.

This is why I'm here. I love this exchange. But make no mistake, no one here is my superior. It's not going to be a beggar/feeder exchange--despite being ABOUT beggar /feeder exchange. I personally think this is a good thing--you say what you can't say to your employees, I say what I can't say to my boss. Maybe everyone gets something out of it. Maybe we pass time. Maybe we don't.

7/20/15       #65: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

"It's been implied that all the risk is carried by the owner"

One definition of an employee might be that he wants to avoid risk.

The owner generally has to borrow money in order to buy equipment, he might not get paid one dime until months after the job is finished, he has to front payroll until that happens, then there are those pesky lawyers, those pesky regulators that might decide the most confounded things all at the owners expense, then the employee might do something stupid that will cost the owner plenty and the employee nothing, etc etc.

Splain me again the risk the employee is taking?

7/20/15       #66: Remuneration ...
Riggles Member

I think my keyword there was "all", and I did go on to explain where my (wage slave) risk was.

7/20/15       #67: Remuneration ...
JWSee

Riggles,

I agree with you that there are a lot of times when a worker might think they are being underpaid. Can you ever recall a time when you think you might have been overpaid?

Regarding "risk", don't most employees draw money from the government when they are unemployed? Did you eschew those benefits when you were suffering the consequences of "risk"?

7/20/15       #68: Remuneration ...
JWSee

Mel,

You're leading with your chin again.
Don't shoot the messenger.

7/20/15       #69: Remuneration ...
Mel

"Splain me again the risk the employee is taking?"

Working for an ahole, false promises, accidently subscribing to a well-sold step back, getting ripped off on pay...

Our problems aren't bigger, they are just so drawn out. Keep in mind that you can manipulate the variables of your business and adjust on mistakes faster than we can. Realizing you are somewhere you shouldn't be can be a heck of a nightmare for the beggar that needs to maintain a resume and a reputation in a very small world, and can't exactly skip a paycheck for transition that well.

We can all play my problems are bigger than yours, but at the end of the day, seeing what position offers what issues no matter where you stand, is in no way a bad thing.

Exchange Pat--you get to be the big kahoona, you get to manipulate variables, but you get the hardships of both of those things as well. Some decent people in this life actually want to be employees, but not just anyone's employees.

For the record, despite a few misunderstandings, I'm at this point 100% convinced that you are a fantastic employer. The fact that you tried that hard on incentive programs and had to see nasty humans being nasty humans means a lot in my books.

7/20/15       #70: Remuneration ...
Mel

"Mel,

You're leading with your chin again."

Yes, yes I am :) Taking a punch might mean something more about you then me though ;)

7/20/15       #71: Remuneration ...
Riggles Member

From @JWSee:

"Riggles, I agree with you that there are a lot of times when a worker might think they are being underpaid. Can you ever recall a time when you think you might have been overpaid?"
Absolutely -- I was in tech, making pretty much what I'm making now, but 20 years ago and without thousands of dollars invested in my own tools. That said, I'm much happier, so it's a fair trade.

"Regarding "risk", don't most employees draw money from the government when they are unemployed? Did you eschew those benefits when you were suffering the consequences of "risk"?"
Agreed that long layoffs will often trigger unemployment benefits. If I was laid off for more than a couple of weeks, I'd just find alternate employment, so none of that really applies to me personally. What I was getting at (and obviously didn't explain well) was the occasional days off because there's no billable work to do. A day every 3 weeks looks like a 6% pay cut.

I do respect the level of risk that owners endure... please don't get me wrong. (That's the reason I'm a wage slave.) I did want to mention the other side of the coin, though.

7/21/15       #72: Remuneration ...
Mel

"I did want to mention the other side of the coin, though."

HOW DARE YOU!! Prepare for the slaughtering ;)

7/21/15       #73: Remuneration ...
CanadaTom

Pat --

It is disappointing when employees take their employer for a ride, for sure. Yet it might take more than one stab at it to get it right, by several enterprises. Please don't throw the baby out with the bath water yet. I was not advocating using a mature ERP system out of the box, I was talking about formulating and adopting a methodology, then applying software to it, not the other way around. Over the last decade customization has been the most notoriously overlooked and problematic aspect of any ERP implementation, and when it comes to human resources it gets worse -- lumped in under asset management the model does not perform -- an assembler working in your shop is not a chipper-canter that has a maintenance schedule (but probably should, in terms of vacation, bonuses, pizza every third non-pay friday...), so the models are applied quite poorly out of the box. After all, supply chain and customer relations management is mostly what they are about. Humans are an afterthought, but they really don't have to be, especially since good ones are a dwindling resource in manufacturing sectors.

Software developers and accountants are not cognitive psychologists. So to customize a system one either has to be one of those, or know their business as well as you know yours. As to the age of the system in your friend's case, once again, it does not matter how long Oracle or SAP have been around -- they all cater to the lowest common denomenator, with predictable valleys down which the customization ball rolls. Most SMEs that have some statistically signifigant, sustainable gains to show from implementation of an ERP have developed their own.

Let's abstract it one layer up, if you don't mind -- let's look at bidding an open tender project. Is it always a race to the bottom with the competition? How does the general/architect/engineer justify an extra to the owner, and how carefully do they specify what they pay for, and how much? How do you sell that extra? Now if an employee wants to sell you that extra, how can you account for it if you haven't received and analyzed the other bidders' offerings who did not offer it? Most employees dont give a rattus posterior about that, but if you, as the general, want to reward the best and retain it in competitive market conditions, you need to know what best is: itemized list of performance characteristics with a couple of subtotals breaking out major components, right?

Robert, Sea --

Odds are I will never own a small business. Not because i'm afraid of 14-hour days, but because i don't want them. I do not believe it is something one has to do to have a good life. And many of my peers are of a similar opinion.

Of course the business i'm in wasn't built on 30-hour weeks, but back then, after the great depression and second world war, there was increasing value in ridiculous work and long hours. There were more resources and opportunities than people willing to take them. You probably remember 22% annual rates on car loans, 15% mortgages? Things changed -- boomers saw growth no other generation will ever see, and not many modren young adults are willing to take that path, because the risk mitigation involves giving up your life.

7/21/15       #74: Remuneration ...
Larry


"I have to point out the demotivational aspect of a person feeling like they're being underpaid."
So there are 3 possible perceptions of pay: I'm over paid. OK really there are only 2. I'm fairly paid or I'm underpaid. That comes down to only one #, fairly paid. Compared to ?? other employees @ the same shop, other shops, other states, union hiring halls, what you think your employer is making, lawyers, doctors?

I've been told by employees: "It's unfair of you (me) to make a profit on my labor!" "You charge 3 times (shop rate) what you pay me, that's unfair!" "I'd work faster/better if you'd pay me more." "You get to depreciate that new XXX machine so it doesn't cost you anything." "You get to deduct that donation, that's the only reason you did it."

I've had everyone of these from (mostly prior) employees. Certainly a demonstration of their understanding of business. It contributes to their determination of "fair." End of Rant

Riggles, why are you still a "wage slave"? You could make big bucks owning a business making cabinets or furniture.

7/21/15       #75: Remuneration ...
JWS

Riggles,

Glad to have your perspective in this dialog. Allow me to add to it.

This pay for performance thing is kind of a quid pro quo sort of a deal. (Actually it is typically not pay for performance at all but more like pay for potential performance.) The days you weren't at work were days your income was less but not necessarily a decrease in pay unless, of course, you spent the day in the parking lot on call in case there was work to perform. It's part of the free agency thing about employment. No show up, no pay but no have to show up (though overhead, like rust, never sleeps).

Mel,
Always remember, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out there to get you!

XOXO,

JWS

7/21/15       #76: Remuneration ...
CanadaTom

Riggles, Mel --

I absolutely agree that employees take risk as well. No job is ever guaranteed, even if it's called "permanent", yet a mortgage is. What if an employee has excellent performance characteristics but the owner f*$!s up big time? Are they insured against the unfulfilled promises they made to the employees with the best of intentions? You are sharing a good portion of your life with the person you are reporting to. When there is trust, there is risk.

7/21/15       #77: Remuneration ...
Mel

"Mel,
Always remember, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out there to get you!

XOXO"

LMAO--love ya buckets my dear :) Be aware tho--I am in the process of acquiring the worst hippy garb I can find, and growing out my armpit hairs, to come and hug you at your shop in front of all you staff. And I will smell like patchouli... I KNOW WHERE YOU WORK :O

Heheheh :)

7/21/15       #78: Remuneration ...
Riggles Member

Thanks for the ideas and questions... a few responses:

@Larry: one of the benchmarks that I see is a California labor board report for 2015 that shows medians for carpenters in my county. (Frankly, I've never had such a granular comparator of my wages, and it's kind of odd.) I'm sure other people compare themselves to doctors, but that's not very productive.

To answer your question about "why"... I enjoy carpentry and don't like hustling for business. (I won't even get started about how awful I am with paperwork.) Basically, my exchange is lower wages for fewer headaches. Suits me, most of the time.

@JWS, that's an interesting perspective. If I could remember that my annual salary isn't (hourly wage*2000) but (hourly wage*2000-6%), I'd probably enjoy my days off more.

7/21/15       #79: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

"boomers saw growth no other generation will ever see"

Not so:

How The Millennial Generation Could Affect The Economy Over The Next Five Years
Comment Now Follow Comments
This year, Millennials are expected to surpass Boomers as the largest living American generation, and soon, their effects on the economy will be felt in even greater measure, according a new Standard & Poor’s report released Wednesday.

The report by Beth Ann Bovino, Standard & Poor’s U.S. chief economist, noted that this generation, born from 1981 to 1997, numbers 80 million and that they spend an annual $600 billion. By 2020, they could account for $1.4 trillion in spending, or 30% of total retail sales.

Forbes article about mellennials

7/21/15       #80: Remuneration ...
Robert

Mel,
I've typed and erased, typed and erased...you are basically asking me can I trust you and do you have good motives- if not of me than of the group. That is a hard thing to prove over the internet!

First, there is no doubt there is some shitty bosses in the world. Probably a few here. No denying it. 40-50% out in the world sound about right? Folks who will take advantage of you, chew you up and spit you out. I've had a few good ones and few bad ones, doing everything from being a janitor, a preacher, a carpenter, social services kinda work, forest ranger and working at a garbage dump, but started my company at the old age of 23 (37 now). I was a lot like you- a lot.

But...it really does look different when you've been on the other side of the fence. I've been you. In your shoes.
I thought a lot like you before I was in my shoes, but I still your remember your size sevens.

You don't know me so you'll just have to take me at my word. I treat those who do work for me REAL well. Each has said that they've been treated better by my company than anywhere else.

I don't think of myself as better than them though and I certainly don't beat them down. I try daily to build them up and thank them.

However, I also know they don't carry even close to the same responsiblity, risk, dedication, exposure, skill, knowledge...you can keep going. They are great at what they do and they are friends and extremely valuable. But they still only see a piece of the puzzle, would be very hard to replace but my company would survive without one or all of them- it would die within a week without me (that's not necessarily a good thing- and certainly displays a weakness of mine. And that is something I do also do, admit my weakness to them- you know, lead with my chin)

So yes, grown men who together have worked for dozens of companies, a university and the government over the years logging many decades in many industries who tell me they are treated far superior doing work for me.

So with that said- yes, I have told all but one, "Shut up and listen" at least once. It doesn't happen often, because I get quickly get rid of the guys that need it often. Sometimes they think they are seeing it. They're studs. But sometimes they just don't.

I can't prove to you Pat's goodwill or mine. I can't prove to you that you see a small piece of the puzzle- and therefore understand a small piece of it. To be honest I'm finding that I can offer the most solid proof in the world to folks and they still see what they want to see to begin with.

All I can tell you is that I think Pat was well intentioned and had something worth offering to you. From there you have to either pick up what he was laying down and run with it or you may choose to see what you want to see. Or maybe he or I was wrong, up to you to decide.

Good luck, Robert

7/21/15       #81: Remuneration ...
Robert

CanadaTom
You aren't understanding me. I doesn't matter what you believe. You are only allowed to believe it because someone else put(s) in the 14 hour day. You can live your reality because someone else has allowed you to do it. Robert

7/21/15       #82: Remuneration ...
glen

Mel and Canada. Can you tell me if you would be willing to cash all of your life savings in to make sure the doors stayed open after your business fell by 50%? I did that when others closed the doors after the crash. I did that because my generation was taught that self sacrifice for the good of the team was a noble goal. I did that to make sure the families I was responsible for had food on the table.

We take all of the risk and the employee really has no risk. If we fail they can get unemployment and find another job. Owners not so much.

I think you will both live to see another great depression on your watch and from what I have seen of millenials you will have a tough time dealing with reality. Good luck with those 30 hour weeks and salary demands.

7/21/15       #83: Remuneration ...
CanadaTom

Pat --

I was referring to the ratio of undeveloped resources to able population against available technology. Economic growth, development opportunities, natural resources, new technologies and their impacts on raw material development, lack of environmental overhead, relative lack of regulation. Wider margins. Easier to make it through a wider gate, even if one is not a particularly good driver.

Robert --

I am allowed to believe what I believe because this is a free country (maybe not as free as you folks South of the line, but still pretty good). I reap the benefits of hard work put in during the era of resource expansion. Yes, yes I do. Because it would be stupid not to. However you are also misunderstanding my point: we can accomplish a lot in a shorter day because we can now use all sort of technical aids. I don't think that putting in more time increases your margins or reduces risk, if you get some help from technology.

Glen --

I don't have life savings. We have a house, which happens to be in the second most ridiculously priced area of the world. And I wasn't handed a couple of injection-molding factories in Taiwan to help pay for it.

But if i did -- sure would; in an eye blink. Been broke many times, what's one more.

I'm in a good position to take a depression, inflation, etc. I owe more than i'm worth, so bring it on, let's devalue those debts, shrink those ridiculous mutual funds and get rid of some bankers. Thankfully i know how to grow potatoes, make hooch, and milk a cow.

7/21/15       #84: Remuneration ...
JWS

Robert,

You have endeared yourself to your employees in a way that none other has been able to. Yours is the very best place to work of all the places your crew has ever worked.

How many people are you talking about here? How long have they been working for you? What about your company makes it such a great place to work?

If you truly have unlocked the key to employee contentment, please share how you do this.

7/21/15       #85: Remuneration ...
glen

I think my guys are different in some ways. They are Romanian and escaped from Chechescu when he was hauling their relatives off. They were teenagers and started working here in 1982. They are used to famine and poverty and all make over $25 an hour now. The work is also challenging as we make custom furniture and rarely make two pieces the same. They understand what was so great about America and are very happy to be here and have an ingrained work ethic better than most. They get it and I appreciate them.

7/21/15       #86: Remuneration ...
Larry

Glen, I also cashed out my savings and kept all my employees. They got 40 hours pay and we had the cleanest shop ever. A few of them took a Friday off to do home projects in the shop or to go see the relatives. I haven't done the math but pretty sure over 1/2 of my guys have been here over 15 years. Must be something they like here.

7/21/15       #87: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

"Pat --

I was referring to the ratio of undeveloped resources to able population against available technology. Economic growth, development opportunities, natural resources, new technologies and their impacts on raw material development, lack of environmental overhead, relative lack of regulation. Wider margins. Easier to make it through a wider gate, even if one is not a particularly good driver."

You fail to mention the technology that you are privy to.

I think the last two posts are most relevant.

7/21/15       #88: Remuneration ...
Robert

JWE,
I don't know that there is a secret sauce beyond the golden rule- whether it's clients or someone who does work for you. You treat someone like you would want to be treated. It's served me well, even though it is not easy. If you combine that with being organized and having a system- it goes a long way. But I'm small time compared to most guys- on purpose. My way probably wouldn't work for many. Trust is a big part of the equation. Business is done with a handshake and you are only as good as your word and your last job.

7/21/15       #89: Remuneration ...
Paul Downs

I'm late to this thread, but wanted to chime in on the risk that employees take. It's not as easy to see as owner's risk, but it's real. Their risk, when they sign on to any particular job, is that they turned their back on something better. Every hour they spend in Shop A, putting up with whatever conditions and pay that entails, could have been spent in Shop B, which might be much more satisfactory. Even choosing to stay in woodworking can have a very high opportunity cost when better paying jobs are available in different industries. Over time the cost of those choices can be considerable. On the flip side, most people place a very high value on knowing where to go to work tomorrow and how much they will be paid, and if the job provides non-monetary compensation, like challenge and satisfaction, then lower wages might be worth it.

Owners have the same risk - that they are wasting their time and money - and a lot of other risk on top of that. So yes, their situation is tougher, and not for everyone. But to say that employees have no risk is, in my opinion, incorrect.

7/21/15       #90: Remuneration ...
glen

That really is not risk, it is more choice. If they choose to work here then they get what they get. You can say that 100% of people have risk of taking a job that might be less than they could have gotten at another job. That is called "greener grass syndrome". Bottom line is the employer takes almost all risk and the employee takes little. Risk is when you lose your home if the business fails IMO.

7/21/15       #92: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

I would respond that you cannot conflate conditions that are endemic to life to a job.
They are not.

Admittedly the NYT would have the workers of the world believe this, but it just isn't so.

By definition a worker takes a job for temporal reasons, his risk is in effect that of one paycheck.

Not to mention that his unemployment insurance is taken care of by the employer (not the government), any negligence on his part that leads to an accident is taken care of exclusive of fault, now with Obama care his health insurance is taken care of, half of his social security contribution is taken care of by the employer.

The part of the risk that is peculiar to his job is next to nothing. In effect I'm saying NO it is not correct to say the employee has risk.

7/21/15       #93: Remuneration ...
CanadaTom

Pat, good point.

But there is still a much lower limit. We are developing more efficient ways to do things not by choice, but out of necessity, trying to squeeze what we can out of the opportunities.

There are several ways to increase one's remuneration as an employee, the top three that come to mind are: by making more per hour worked, by working less per dollar paid, and by picking the conditions under which the work is performed. If a business owner wishes to keep the cost constrained, s/he has to vary the conditions, which brings me back to points previously made.

Glen --

It would be a choice, and not risk, if a business owner opened his/her books and said "Here are my orders, cashflow, margins for the last n years. Make an informed decision". Then it's a choice. If the statement is "I can start you out at $18/hr, and then we'll raise you to $25 if all is well", then it's a risk to the employee. They don't know what you're hiding. Employees can lose houses too. I was promised golden mountains but in 2008 had to move into my friend's moldy basement - he worked for the competition. Had i picked a different employer those 4 months would have been much more pleasant.

7/21/15       #94: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

The thing that has raised the standard of living of all the denizens of this planet since the beginning of time has been technology and comparative advantage that helps to create that technology.

So if you want to improve your lot in life learn something that produces more goods, i.e. learn how to use a backhoe instead of a shovel.

7/21/15       #95: Remuneration ...
CanadaTom

Yes, exactly! But it has to be possible within the environment -- most employers do not have that provision within their operations, unless they have a reliable way to measure the output, and a way to reward the employee based upon the aforementioned output!

I am listening to that GM/Toyota podcast you posted now, never heard it before -- quite good so far. Lots of crossover to this topic.

7/22/15       #96: Remuneration ...
Sea444

The only risk an employee takes is hoping that the owner can cover his wages on payday. He can walk at any time he thinks he get more somewhere else, caring less that the owner has made delivery promises counting on the employees labor being present. Sooner or later every employee feels underpaid and under appreciated, it comes with the territory.

The grass always looks greener around the bosses house. Never mind that he took all the risk, and by the way the owner only gets paid from the leftovers after the wages and bills are paid, even though the owner typically puts in many more hours than the "slaves".

Take a typical small (3-5 man) shop. The owner typically works right next to the employees, abet constant interruptions from customers, sales people, tech reps and whining employees. The only real difference is that the owner has $500k of his money invested in the company and the employees has no investment. If the owner had put the money in the bank at pre Obama savings rates of 4%, the owner would be making $20k a year in interest. Thus the owner, doing the same work as a $40k employee should be entitled to $60k, not accounting for the risks the owner takes., yet most of my employees alway seemed to think they were being cheated since in their mind they got less pay for similar work.

7/22/15       #97: Remuneration ...
Mel

Robert: "you are basically asking me can I trust you and do you have good motives- if not of me than of the group. That is a hard thing to prove over the internet!"

Kay we're getting somewhere pretty good on this. So I got a list of people that I like. A list of people I adore. A list of people that can tell me to shut up. The first lists are actually quite large. That last list is very,very small. And even then, they better do it just right.

I'd bet you are one of the type of people that would know how to do that. If you have what you have with your employees, I have the feeling that the backbone behind this has something to do with the fact that you managed to have a discussion like this, this well.

Glen: "Mel and Canada. Can you tell me if you would be willing to cash all of your life savings in to make sure the doors stayed open after your business fell by 50%?"

I have not owned a woodworking shop. But I have been a contractor with several employees. It's not exactly the same. But there are some parallels. Recession hit, and not only did I have no work to give to anyone, but also no work for myself. I had to give up my place, and find an entirely different line of work for an employer.

It's different in a several respects, but telling me I don't get it is not entirely true.

Larry: "I've been told by employees: "It's unfair of you (me) to make a profit on my labor!" "You charge 3 times (shop rate) what you pay me, that's unfair!" "I'd work faster/better if you'd pay me more." "You get to depreciate that new XXX machine so it doesn't cost you anything." "You get to deduct that donation, that's the only reason you did it." "

Kay--so that's completely ridiculous statements. And I know they are the majority in terms of workers--I probably hear it more then you do because I'm "one of them".

But a handful of people are not like that. You ask how about being very well paid? Better then others? I've been there--I negotiate very well. But I've always had available information to use as a negotiating tool. Averages, stats, etc.

But since I've become a joiner, I can not find such numbers. This is totally castrating in terms of negotiating. You guys ever look up joiner salary stats? Ask around? Holy nebula of awkward grey confusion.

Now I have no tool for negotiation. No base reference. I want to know if it all depends on skills/balls on the table at negotiation or if there is actually a way to figure out something that is fair to both without requiring a poker face at a table and writing down a number on a paper.

7/22/15       #98: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

look at the link

BLS mean wages

7/22/15       #99: Remuneration ...
Mel

Oh and I almost forgot..

Paul Downs, you are the king of fairness.

7/22/15       #100: Remuneration ...
Mel

So I took that and compared price of living between Vancouver and California. That gives me something to work on.

So if the range goes from 14-22--how do you distribute who is worth what?

7/22/15       #101: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

The official type setup, FWIW is set up in quintiles. Since you are a millennial you would be in the highest quintile...

Usually there is a going wage that most guys want. As an employer it is quite consistent. In order to be worth that wage you have to be able to perform certain functions at certain speeds. There might be a 15% variance up or down.

It is funny how employers have a consistent rating of employees, because they all have the same labor pool to benchmark off of.

The really valuable commodity in employees is dependability, once you get people like that you don't want to lose them.

7/22/15       #102: Remuneration ...
Mel

So how do years of experience factor in?

I'm about 1 year into professional woodworking. That is not much. But now I'm neck deep into some very nice custom work, and I hear it's a fight to get me on projects. The ol dog that has been doing all their craziest stuff for the last 16 years has taken me in and has been having fun throwing things at me to see how I do.

I heard today that I am faster and better then most people that have been there for years--from both the old dog and an ol dog finisher that is on a mission to train me to do the best finishing sanding prep in the world.

I wouldn't even know what to pay me. I'm fast but I also have strange gaps in knowledge that require getting their most expensive guys to give me 10 minutes here and there.

Keep in mind that these people are doing very well--average 1.5 million a month.

What would you do if you had to figure out how to pay me? It's why I feel like entirely putting it into their hands, but I don't know if that's an idiot move.

So how does performance balance against experience?

7/22/15       #103: Remuneration ...
JWSee

Mel,

Customers only give you money for things THEY value. They don't really care too much about what you value. They only care about the things they value.

Ergo........if you want to make a lot of money you need to start focusing on things the customer values.

Step 1 is to stop thinking of yourself as the customer and start thinking of yourself as your shareholder. Implicit in this is recognition that there really is a customer in this transaction but you're not that person.

As soon as you can understand who the customer really is your shareholder's equity will improve.

Stop worrying about being a chump. Start worrying about what is important to your customer. The money will flow to your shareholders if you do a good job of delivering what your customer values.

Stand in front of the mirror and practice saying: "I am not my customer. I am my shareholder". Chant it. Make it your mantra. Soon you will achieve clarity about this.

7/22/15       #104: Remuneration ...
Robert Member

When your review comes up, explain to them that your are great and you work faster than gossip travels and that you want more than the guy whos been there for years and isn't nearly as good as you are because everyone tells you you are good.Case closed.

7/22/15       #105: Remuneration ...
Mel

JWS--back it up a bit. There's a few things you do not know about the situation--don't envision me in your shop, envision what you would do if this was your shop and I was in it.

Right now their custom dept is lacking. Old guys, health problems, tough work to teach, hard to find. Plus the ol guys there have zero patience for youngens---thankfully this place has taught me how to "yes sir!" a crotchety boomer, and I'm having no issues getting work/instruction from them.

I'm not talking about doing something that I want to do--I'm talking about doing something they need, that is hard to find, but that I can do with some very fast/minor instructions.

I'm not making up cool work for my ego--these guys have customers that are software giants...somewhere in California. I want a solid spot, and I'm finding a way to get it. And I'm not too far off--fine tuning.

Robert--can I actually be that cocky? Or is it me seeing it as cockiness for something that is normal in manland?

7/22/15       #106: Remuneration ...
JWSee

Mel,

This is going to be my last foray into this.
You can do with it what you want.

If you had a sandwich shop or a shoe store or a cabinet shop the path to success is exactly the same: Figure out who your customer is, what your customer wants and deliver what they want.

Fundamental to this is figuring out who the customer is.

The money will flow to your shareholders as soon as you figure out who the customer is.

I am quite sure that you are a rising star within your organization but this has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

Figure out who the customer is and the money will flow to you. Pick the wrong customer and it won't.

7/22/15       #107: Remuneration ...
Mel

Okay, Good Sirs! I'm off my rocker and what I think can be done can not be done?

I'll report back when I get what I'm after.

7/22/15       #108: Remuneration ...
Robert

Mel,
Same Robert as before here. Somewhat like the Robert above I think it comes down to confidence- the confidence they have in you and the confidence you have in yourself.

You have to have the facts that you are making the money, the guts to ask what that is worth and the confidence to be willing to ask for it- unless you have a boss that recognizes it and wants to get out in front of it to make sure he retains you.

For what it is worth, with your experience you'd be worth $20-$25 in my neck of the woods. But I'm rural, west coat US so your mileage my vary.

I really don't care about experience- and in many instances it's a negative because you have too many bad habits. Bottom line is about what you can get out the door at acceptable quality level or above without causing headaches to the shop. As far as I'm concerned there is no ceiling as long as you are making me money. There is a wide variance from person to person how much work they can get done in a day- there are Michael Jordan's in the world and also those who barely make the team. I'll take Jordan as a sophomore over almost every single player that's ever played even in their prime. It just comes down to performance. And you have to be able to quantify it- without upsetting everyone around you.

7/22/15       #109: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

Me thinks that you are starting to suffer from greed.

Just worry about the exchange.

Me thinks you should consider that this place is learning you a lot of stuff and that you should appreciate it.

The Boomers that got old did not get that way cuz they was stupid. Er ah as far as I know.

7/22/15       #110: Remuneration ...
CanadaTom

"Figure out who your customer is, what your customer wants and deliver what they want."

JWS -- I would like to add something to that. Yes, one needs to know their customer, but there's more than delivering what they want.

Mel, the following comes from my experience in, as my co-worker puts it, "selling s#!t to a-holes" -- approach might seem silly but works well. Busy people have hard-and-fast rules which even they don't realize they've fallen into. Hit all the points, get momma a pair of brand new shoes.

First thing is identifying the need. You are not selling a technological change into an already profitable enterprise, so the job is easier, you don't have to create or justify the need. People are more likely to buy something they need, regardless of whether the needs and wants overlap. A shop actually NEEDS brains, quality, predictability, loyalty. A shop WANTS know-how, submissiveness, hard work, longevity. It seems to me that a lot of problematic employment situations stem from this confusion. Advertise what they need, not what they want, it will get through.

Second thing, purely from the value-added textbook, is to package the product that fills the need with an extra that's on the "nice to have" list. Like respect, full immersion (after all you are still talking about work at close to 8pm), dedication to deadlines. Never step over yourself to deliver a "want", that's paving a road to misery. But add something nice that is easy for you to deliver, something you either do or think of doing already, something that makes people smile, not just fills their gantt chart and gets past dependencies.

Things 1 and 2 need to be well internalized by your customer before a price increase. They must see that you deliver on those consistently.

Third thing (since you are already delivering) is to lean on the package and increase the price. Simple as that. So yeah, get cocky, slap it on the table. since you are already performing well the worst you get is a counteroffer -- most will pay more to keep the status quo in these cases than take a risk to lose it -- i sell obsolete equipment into this mentality all the time, and you don't even sound like you're obsolete. You won't get fired, you won't get demoted.

There is a lot of competition that will sell you what you want, but not much that will bother analyzing what you need and make it look appealing. During the recession people actually started paying attention to needs over wants. Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Toyota Camry, and Honda Accord have EACH outsold Ford F150 by a healthy margin, dropped the market share of the king of vehicle sales in the US for over 15 years, by 30-ish percent. Why? People wanted a truck, but did not need it. Wants are the first to go.

If you deliver on the "wants" you are a retail outlet. If you deliver on the "needs" you are a resource.

7/22/15       #111: Remuneration ...
Mel

"If you deliver on the "wants" you are a retail outlet. If you deliver on the "needs" you are a resource"

Oooooooo here we go!!! You speak what I speak good Sir.

I got this. It is a sales process-the fact that this this topic stirs so much emotion, but no real strategy, tells me that salary valuation in woodshops lacks consistency.

Thanks to anyone who participated.

7/23/15       #112: Remuneration ...
Robert

Mel,
The kind of folks I'm willing to pay can keep their cool when someone is being an asshole (internet or not) or when they are told to shut up (when they are treated with respect always, but need to shut up). Something to think about. It's a trait I picked up the hard way, 10-15 years later than I should. Don't be like me.

7/23/15       #113: Remuneration ...
glen

You are worth what your employer is willing to pay you. Not a penny more. If you create more friction than good then the door is the next promotion. That is what we old guys call the real world. Do what you have to do and live with what you did. You have been a woodworker for a year?

7/23/15       #114: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

I have to say that 20-25 per hour for someone with 1 year experience seems very high.

7/23/15       #115: Remuneration ...
Larry

Can't measure $ the same in different places. $25 in West Virginia is probably a lot different then in San Francisco. Experience is a highly variable metric, especially if measured in years rather than what has been learned.
Are you still making cabinets the same way you did 10 years ago? If so, maybe that 10 years experience hasn't added much to your value.

7/23/15       #116: Remuneration ...
JWSee

One of the problems with pay in this industry is that it peaks too soon. It doesn't take much for a young person to get to $1000 a week. This doesn't usually happen in a year but is obtainable in 3-4 years.

Everything is fine for this young turk because his or her friends are from a similar demographic and this person is usually paid at the the top of that curve. Money no longer is much of a motivator because he is already making more money than any of his friends and he doesn't want to get a new group of friends.

A few years go by, he sees no reason to upgrade the pay program so does very little to extend his skill set beyond the incremental new things he learns if someone else will pay him to learn them.

At some point the young(ish) cabinetmaker gets married and discovers $25 per hour won't buy a house or pay for a wife staying home with a kid. Chagrin sets in while he slowly realizes he has ten years in this trade, the pay won't float his boat and nothing else will pay him what this job will.

Try to get this kid to spend 30 minutes a week developing new skills like CAD or Sketchup or Database or Camera is like trying to get a cat into the cat carrier for a trip to the vet. The cat's life will be improved if he gets a check up but if the cat has a vote it's not going to happen. The primary difference is you can eventually get the cat into the box but probably not so much success getting the jr. associate to develop management skills.

This is doubly hard if the candidate is usually convinced they are right about most things.

This is probably where the expression "youth is wasted on the young" comes from.

7/23/15       #117: Remuneration ...
Mel

Pictures help?


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7/23/15       #118: Remuneration ...
Mel

More pictures help?


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7/23/15       #119: Remuneration ...
Mel

Yet more pictures help?


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7/23/15       #120: Remuneration ...
Paul Downs

Very nice, but not rocket science.

7/23/15       #121: Remuneration ...
Robert

Mel,
I'm not going to knock your work. It's average to above average- nothing specatacular, but solid & good, a few very nice. But here is the thing- they tell us very little. We have no idea how much you of those you created, how specific of cut lists you were given, who did the finishing, how long they took etc.

In other words there were about half of the pictures I liked the design on. The other half I wasn't too crazy about. So I don't know what your responsible for.

If you are given very specific instructions that does most of the thinking for you or are you given a shop drawing and creating it with nothing more than an artistic representation and overall width, height and depth? Big difference. It comes down to how much of the thinking you did.

I pay for:
1. dependability
2. ability to follow system on anything standard
3. ability to think independently on anything that is not standard
4. production
5. trustworthiness
6. ease of working with
7. willingness to do what needs to be done
8. ability & willingness to follow direction
9. ability to avoid liability
10. loyalty

Different things are important depending on what is needed at that time- so agility is also important.

This says nothing to the fact that the ability to finish (in order of glazing, spraying, staining importance) is more important than the ability to make drawerboxes. Doing final assembly and doing quality control while doing is more important than being able to assemble. There are skill sets more valuable than other skill sets. I don't know your skills sets nor how they pertain to what your company makes.

I agree that 20-25 is high for a first year employee but I gave Mel the star price- only she & her boss know if she is a star. I would gladly pay that for a star- especially if I needed to. In general though if you only try to higher the best, and only keep the best- if you treat them as the best they will make you more money than paying less for a less quality worker.

7/23/15       #122: Remuneration ...
Robert Member

Is Event Star Services the company you presently work for or are these photos from a company you used to work for ?
Basic to simple to nice is how I would describe the work shots.

7/23/15       #123: Remuneration ...
Pat Gilbert

Ok little sister, that stuff is ok. Yea that's right it is ok, but not great.

I think you need to find out is what you DON'T know.

You see FINDING OUT is a big part of success. You are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts.

Take a look at this gallery to see great or better, perfect or better.

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/galleries/project.cgi

In particular look up stuff by
Larry Schweitzer, David Sochar, Jim Baldwin, Paul Downs, and I'm sure many others.

They also produce this stuff with ruthless efficiency as in highly professional.

Something to aspire to

7/23/15       #124: Remuneration ...
Mel

No worries--like I said a year in. I'm totally okay with that feedback.

I don't design.

"If you are given very specific instructions that does most of the thinking for you or are you given a shop drawing and creating it with nothing more than an artistic representation and overall width, height and depth? Big difference. It comes down to how much of the thinking you did."

All except for the bench series were rough draft with overall dimensions. All machinining and cutlists and assembly/final assembly done by me.

The bench series was detail drawing supplied.

As for your list I find all of these items very important, 100% agree with that standard, and do aim to accomplish all said things. Hopefully well... feedback has been immensly positive.

7/23/15       #125: Remuneration ...
Mel

"In particular look up stuff by
Larry Schweitzer, David Sochar, Jim Baldwin, Paul Downs, and I'm sure many others."

Oh gosh--I have, and that's a whole other league. I'm not pretending I'm even anywhere in that ballpark--lol. The very idea is comical.

I just know that I started at the same rate that a guy who feeds things into a machine all day. And that it will be reviewed soon. I just wanted to feel ready.

7/23/15       #126: Remuneration ...
Mel

I think we all posted at once--just caught this. Robert, Event Star was ages ago, "BC" as I call it: Before Child. Was a roadie for sports events for these guys.

7/23/15       #127: Remuneration ...
Robert Member

Post some photos of the ( GC ) Growing Child projects. Like to see how you've progressed.

7/23/15       #128: Remuneration ...
Mel

Robert-- Help a frenchy out--"growing child?"

Like this guy? Or it's an expression?


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7/24/15       #129: Remuneration ...
Mel

Hey question...thinking about wage as a larger topic and how it feels to have to regulate/allot it.

How often has it happened to you that an employee was a bit in your s list and they walked in and asked for a raise?

How good of a grasp would you say an average fellow has of their worth?

How do you deal with choking back a "you gotta be kidding me" and outputing a narrative that isn't too insulting? Or do you?

Curious. It's probably one of the more annoying tasks of being the employees boss?

8/1/15       #130: Remuneration ...
Monte Member

Hello, Mel. Not sure if you are still working this topic, but felt moved to suggest that the idea of contentment is ultimately more satisfying than the idea of fairness. In other words, striving for fairness is like chasing the wind. Learning to be content with less than we hoped for makes for a more restful night's sleep. I do wish you well and hope that you receive more than you hoped for, but if not, at least enough to provide for your little one.

8/1/15       #131: Remuneration ...
Mel

<3

Money only ever became an issue when that little man on a plush horse came to be. His contentment is mine. Hopefully I can also woodwork :)

9/24/15       #132: Remuneration ...
Mel

Told you I'd report back. Yes I did ask and yes I did get. Thanks for helping me build an answer to everything :)


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