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Subject: Re: RE: Nested Base Fasteners or Joinery

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RE: Nested Base Fasteners or Joinery

2/1/18       
Matt Gregg Member

Website: http://www.traditionalincnaples.com/

We are switching over to nested base manufacturing. We're looking to use something that requires no end drilling for our horizontal parts. We're looking into Lamello Cabineo, Tenoncam, etc.... Has anyone used either one of these? Or is there something different that you use?

Thanks in advance!

2/1/18       #2: RE: Nested Base Fasteners or Joiner ...
Dropout Member

Some of my clients just use #8 by 1 1/2 screws. We predrill the ends and backs for them.

2/1/18       #3: RE: Nested Base Fasteners or Joiner ...
MarkB Member

We just ran our first job with cabineo. They seem slick if you don't mind seeing the fastener (or you can locate them on the backs/bottoms) but we don't do a lot of melamine so no long term data.

2/2/18       #4: RE: Nested Base Fasteners or Joiner ...
Pat Gilbert

I don't own tenoncam software but have installed for them (the Hillers have a shop too). I would keep them on the short list as it is the real deal.

Nicest boxes I have seen. Especially considering they use Chinese plywood.

2/5/18       #5: RE: Nested Base Fasteners or Joiner ...
Larry

Either seems OK. We dowel but it requires a bore & insert machine and case clamp. The advantage of the Lamello Cabineo, is no case clamp required. You can take parts to the job site flat packed and assemble there. May eliminate a second trip sometimes. Particularly good for large cases. They are probably relatively expensive.

Tenoncam would require a case clamp or a lot of space for bar clamped cases to set up. I don't know if the fit would allow quick release from clamps like dowels do or not. The proprietary router bits likely cost more per part run than high quality coated compression bits.

There are other connectors that work with only face drilling.
It's hard to beat dowels for speed but costs more to set up. I don't know the current price for a case clamp but several years ago ours was well over $50K. Gannomatt Concept Primus 90, nice clamp, no setup required. You can get 80 cases a day through it with one man, also installing drawer guides and hinge plates.

2/5/18       #6: RE: Nested Base Fasteners or Joiner ...
Dave L

I'd be curious about Cabineo VS Rafix-SE (2-hole). Things that come to mind are that the Cabineo screws are nowhere close to center in the fitting panel and the screws don't appear to have a locating point (e.g. like confirmat screws). Even with a locating point, I'd think the Rafix would be easier to assemble because the housing and screw/dowel self align.

Cabineo's comparison with Minifix cam and dowel construction is pretty worthless. I cannot imagine why I would concider using Cabineo if I had endbore capability. I started with Rafix and switched to Minifix or confirmat (both w/ and w/o dowels) when I got endbore (still no caseclamp).

I'd suggest getting a Hafele catalog, they have a pretty good selection of face only joint hardware (including all the above).

2/6/18       #7: RE: Nested Base Fasteners or Joiner ...
Matt Gregg Member

Website: http://www.traditionalincnaples.com/

Right now we're running parts on a Weeke BHX 050. We're doweling and screwing the cabs together. We bought a flat bed cnc and we are starting to nest. We don't have a dowel inserter or a case clamp.That's why we're thinking about changing construction methods. We were trying to get away from end milling entirely since it would be another operation. We don't think Cabineo is going to work. Because, seeing the fastener is not going to work for us. We use Cabinetvision and they have what they call a qualified dado. It resembles Tenoncam. We're checking into it now.

2/6/18       #8: RE: Nested Base Fasteners or Joiner ...
Chris

Website: http://www.csaw.com/lamello/lamello-system/lamello...

Hello all,
This is a good, healthy debate here! It looks like you've all been doing your research to find the best connector solution for your operations. I thought I'd chime in here and offer a bit of input.

Just for your own comparisons, the list price of the Cabineo 8 or 12 connectors is $0.33 each. The tips on the Cabineo bolts are indeed blunt because they are designed to screw into the 5mm shelf pin holes that are drilled into the corresponding upright. They are not designed to self-tap like a Confirmat screw.

I tend to agree with Dave L in some respects. If you've already invested in edge boring machinery with case clamps, and that system works well for your operation whether with or without dowels, then the Cabineo argument isn't as strong. That being said, if you're looking to free up floor space, your dedicated machinery needs replacing and it's time to re-evaluate, you need to flat-pack your components, do closet- or store fixture work, etc., then it's certainly worth a closer look.

Cabineo is a VERY strong connector to consider if a shop owner is using only a CNC router, but does not have edge boring capability or the floor space to invest in a dowel/case clamp line.

In response to the Rafix comparison, the Cabineo 12 clamps with 200 pounds of force and has 200 pounds of sheer strength per connector. The versions of the Rafix without the outrigger piece sometimes have a tendency to twist in their pocket, whereas the Cabineo will not. And since the Cabineo is a one-piece connector, it is able to allow true flat-packed components with all hardware pre-installed (as opposed to either Rafix or Minifix).

The Cabineo also works well for closets since you are able to add shelving using a top-load installation method. In terms of the aesthetics, cover caps in various colors are available, or the shelf/top/bottom may be flipped over when it's above or below eye-level as needed (as Mark B. mentions).

Please contact us if anyone would like a free Cabineo sample to evaluate on your own.

* Of course, for invisible connectors, Lamello offers the P-System series too.

http://www.csaw.com/lamello/p-system/

2/12/18       #9: RE: Nested Base Fasteners or Joiner ...
Zack

If you flat pack everything and ship to a location far away you will probably save money with a connector. If you build closets you absolutely need a connector of some type. This comment isn't for these people.

If you build local, connectors are just an added cost and yes a case clamp and cnc dowel inserter ARE more *UP FRONT*. Consider an average lower kitchen cabinet needs 24 dowels or 12 connectors.

A dowel with glue costs, lets say just to make sure we aren't cutting costs, $0.02 a dowel this should cost $0.48 a case.
Lets say you're doing 100 cabinets a day. 100 x .48 = $48 in dowels and glue.
$48 x 5 days a week
$240 a week x 52 weeks
$12,480 a year in connectors.

"Just for your own comparisons, the list price of the Cabineo 8 or 12 connectors is $0.33", was said earlier in the conversation. Maybe you don't need 24 Cabineo's for a case, so cut that in half and do the same calculation.
12 x .33 =
$3.96 x 100 cabinets =
$369 x 5 days a week =
$1,980 x 52 weeks =
$102,960 in connectors

A difference of $90,480

Now I know that a case clamp and dowel inserter probably will cost you that much, but you are making a one time payment on something that should last you over 10 years easy and even if a machine breaks its not going to cost you $90k the next year to fix it. I also know that it doesn't cost $90k to ship locally and move cases (which you're going to have to do flat packed plus have someone there to assemble on site) And connectors will always cost money no matter what.

So what you're doing is paying a premium to go to a site with many variables to build and install cabinets instead of doing it at the most controlled site (Your shop) and doing it at a fraction of the cost in a much more efficient way.

Even if you aren't building 100 a day the costs are still never going to go away for a connector where you will pay off a machine. Just something to think about before you start saying that machines are too expensive.

3/15/18       #10: RE: Nested Base Fasteners or Joiner ...
Chad R  Member

Website: http://www.northwayind.com

We recently started making window valance boxes for a hotel chain. I started out using a minifix construction. I nested the parts, edged, and had to drill on a machine with horizontal capability. Depending on work load, they ended up getting nested on different machines, sometimes in a work cell with horizontal drilling machine very close by, sometimes in the component side of our shop, with a horizontal machine and edgebander not so close. The valances can be up to 12' long, so a 4' dowel and drill machine isn't ideal. They ended up being run more often in the component side of the shop. This meant moving the parts multiple times around the shop, which generates no revenue. I ordered a sample kit of the Cabineo, and tested it. It is very strong, and very easy to work with. It totally eliminated an operation, which is huge for this project.

I included a link to a sample video of generating code for the Cabineo.

https://youtu.be/V0_TC8BuAMU

3/4/20       #11: RE: Nested Base Fasteners or Joiner ...
Jim Kolar

I decided on cabineo for my shop because I am on the tail end of this game and didn't want to invest in a cnc borer and case clamp. Overall the system has worked out very good for our shop. Cnc the parts and then band for assembly. Structural is very good.

 

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