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Cope and stick joint too tight?

1/14/17       
Rob

I recently upgraded to insert cope and stick cutters from Royce Ayr and I find the joints way tighter than my old brazed cutters. I can't get enough force from my Bessey clamps to close the joint. The only way I can get them closed is to use my Doucet panel clamps with a lot of pressure. Is this common for these type of heads? I'm using shapers w/ feeders and sled. Any advice would be great.

Thanks

Rob

1/14/17       #2: Cope and stick joint too tight? ...
Matt Calnen

Does the wood split or crack? They should be tight, but not forced. I only run freeborn cutters and i shim to my liking. When you say tight, could you push it together with elbow grease?

1/14/17       #3: Cope and stick joint too tight? ...
Leo G Member

That's way to tight. You need space for the glue, which is 1-2 thousandths inch.

1/15/17       #4: Cope and stick joint too tight? ...
Jim Clark

You need to shim it, most cutter sets
come with shims just for that.
They're real thin copper washers.

1/15/17       #5: Cope and stick joint too tight? ...
Rob

I didn't realize you had to shim them. I'll have to order some. Thanks a lot.

1/15/17       #6: Cope and stick joint too tight? ...
rich c.

You sure they aren't in the set somewhere? I thought every company shipped a set of shims with the cutters.

1/15/17       #7: Cope and stick joint too tight? ...
Rob

I should have specified, it's a one piece cutter. Is it common to offset one of the knives to remove a bit more material?


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1/15/17       #8: Cope and stick joint too tight? ...
Karl E Brogger  Member

Website: http://www.sogncabinets.com

You can shift a knife to adjust the fit on most heads.

1/16/17       #10: Cope and stick joint too tight? ...
Jim Clark  Member

Website: http://s51.photobucket.com/albums/f386/jcquack/Fur...

Sometimes it's easier to shim the stock
or the table top.
If I have a couple pieces too tight
and I don't want to readjust, I'll put a strip
of tape on the piece to shim it up higher.

1/16/17       #11: Cope and stick joint too tight? ...
Brad

The drawing shows you should have 10 thou clearance. Did you check the blades with calipers?

That head has index screws, i doubt it is adjustable.

1/16/17       #12: Cope and stick joint too tight? ...
Rob

I measured the knives today and they are .006" too tight. The tongue and groove are suppose to be .205" but the tongue is .208" and the groove is .202". It would appear that each insert has wore down .003" but I've only run 10 doors through them. Hopefully the manufacture will sort this out for me. Thanks for all the help.

Rob

1/16/17       #13: Cope and stick joint too tight? ...
Joe Calhoon

No experience with Royce inserts but make sure the inserts are seated against both the the back bevel and the positioning screw. I have seen inserts come from the factory installed slightly crooked in the head. Different mfgs have various ways of holding the inserts. With some you have to keep a little pressure in one direction while tightening the screws and some in 2 directions.

Like I say no experence with Royce but you might be able to back off one of the position screws to loosen fit.

Sounds like these are new but pitch can also throw inserts off slightly when changing knives.

1/16/17       #14: Cope and stick joint too tight? ...
Gary

What Joe said. My guess is the inserts are not seated correctly.

1/16/17       #15: Cope and stick joint too tight? ...
JR Rutter

Normally, I see too loose of a fit when a knife is shifted because it is either reducing the tenon in the cope or enlarging the groove in the sticking.

I would be asking Royce to remake them. A lot of shops are running shapers with runout or non-square spindles, so knives are often made too tight. If your shaper is dialed in and/or higher quality than typical, you will get a too tight fit. At least that is the line that my tooling maker gave me when the first order of inserts gave a very tight fit.

1/17/17       #16: Cope and stick joint too tight? ...
Joe Calhoon

I agree that if anything is off it should make the fit looser. But I did once have a tenon disk with a misaligned knife that made the joint impossible to close.
I would still check all the inserts, we have had a few issues where I thought the mfg was wrong and it usually was knife misalignment. They can be wrong though and should make new inserts if so.
Different machines as JR mentioned can also cause variables. As can super hard or dense woods.

1/17/17       #17: Cope and stick joint too tight? ...
Larry

If you can't push the joint together by hand it is too tight. Good advice on making sure the inserts are properly installed. If you shaper is out of tolerance the fit would be too lose. Works like a wobble dado. But check your machine anyhow. Use a good dial indicator to check for bearing play & run out. Use an engineers square to check table to spindle for 90 degrees. Even if the table is a bit out of flat it won't be enough to cause serious problems.

1/17/17       #18: Cope and stick joint too tight? ...
Rob

I spoke to Royce and they said they make the cutters that tight. At their recommendation I adjusted one of the coping knives off the set screw by a paper thickness. Joint fits perfect now! Thanks again for the help.

1/18/17       #19: Cope and stick joint too tight? ...
Adam

As the knives wear, they will loose their tight fit.

As others have noted its extremely rare for insert knives to be totally tight throughout the profile. I've only seen truly defective ones that are like bad keys. One little bit is off and jams up the whole profile.


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