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Faceframe vs frameless/ semi-custom cabinets

1/27/17       
Kevin Member

Website: http://www.finepointcabinetry.com

So I've been in business for 1 year this month strictly building %100 custom high end cabinetry and furniture in north jersey. Business has been ok thus far. My biggest problem is finding the right clientele to be able to afford my prices. Building frameless cabinetry certainly has its pros and it's basically all I know but its seams that I can't compare the the faceframe cabinet shops prices. This is a 2 part question if anyone can give me some insight. For anyone's that's done both frameless and faceframe cabinetry, is faceframe easier/ more time efficient and more cost effective.
I've also been trying figure out how to grow my business and be able to work with the middle class customers. Interested in being able to have different standards to offer To me clients. Would like to be able to distribute semi-custom cabinets as well. Does anyone recommend a specific company the distributes to north jersey that does high/middle end semi-custom cabinets that aren't shitty quality. I know they're a dime a dozen that's why I'm tryin to decipher who I can trust to meet my standards.
Sorry for the long post. Hope you guys can help me. Thanks everyone!

1/27/17       #2: Faceframe vs frameless/ semi-custom ...
Matt Calene

Have you considered marketing hybrid cabinetry? It's just a filler or pilaster between cabinets. It helps give the look of face frames but with out the cost. This picture is what I'm talking about


View higher quality, full size image (4032 X 3024)

1/28/17       #4: Faceframe vs frameless/ semi-custom ...
John B Member

Kevin,
I build mainly face frame cabinetry and in my opinion, it costs more, both in material and labor. Are you building all your boxes yourself? Maybe look into outsourcing boxes and concentrate on the face/doors etc.

1/28/17       #5: Faceframe vs frameless/ semi-custom ...
Larry

There are two questions here, Framed VS Euro box systems. Framed uses more materials and labor. Most people buy what they can see, the fronts. You can hang any style door on either case and most people won't care. It's more about marketing. For a very small shop the cost of getting efficient Euro box equipment is quite high. Best to buy the boxes flat packed. Each step up in equipment brings a reduction in labor. It's always a trade. We have long been exclusively in the commercial market. It is frameless almost totally. You are going to fight an uphill battle trying to sell in the semi-custom resale market. Look for an underserved niche market.

1/30/17       #6: Faceframe vs frameless/ semi-custom ...
Mike Fuson

I only build face frame but I'll give you a few thoughts. A lot of this I think has to do with area that you are in. Years ago here, custom builders built face frame cabinets and if you went to a hardware store and bought off the shelf cabinets they were frameless with raw particle board interiors and it was known as junk. Matter of fact there used to be a particle board factory here when I was a kid called "Tenn Flake". I'd like to have a dollar for every time I've had an older client tell me that they didn't want any Tenn Flake in their cabinets.
You'll probably not get a helpful answer to which is the best style, it's been a debate for years. Probably best for you to decide what is going to sell in you area. If you're wanting to more commercial then go frameless, contemporary residential, then go frameless. However, in my area, rustic, distressed, sand through, shaker, mission, Victorian, antique, etc, is what sells around here. For that then face frame is the way to go. As far as cost and labor goes, I can see face frame costing more labor but I'm not sure I agree about the material cost. Assuming the doors are the same on either style, you're going to have the hardwood cost of the face frame, but with frameless you're going to be using all 3/4" sheet goods where I'm using 1/2" for the carcass and 3/4" for the shelves. It would seem to me that the extra cost of the 3/4 ply would offset the extra cost of the face frame.

2/1/17       #7: Faceframe vs frameless/ semi-custom ...
Pdub

We build both, but only do inset doors with faceframes. that jacks up the cost considerably. More budget-friendly or more contemporary homes get frameless. the high budget contemporary get nicer "materials" than the lower budget projects. Face frame is way more labor and materials. I highly doubt that the cost of 1/2" ply vs 3/4" ply would offset that. Plus, I'd guess if you want a higher end clientele, they won't accept 1/2" box parts.
Frameless is expensive to get into simply because you need an edgebander (and need to maintain it). Hand gluing (ironing) on edgeband is not an oiption if you want to make money. However, once you're setup you can edgeband box parts and put them together way faster than you can faceframe. And if you use PVC banding (we don't), it's WAY faster.
Try to get "in" with a few GC's that usually build the caliber home home that you want to work on. Start out with your prices a little low and prove to them that when they hire you the job will get done on time and the clients will be happy all with as few headaches to them as possible. Then you can gradually raise your prices and they will still hire you simply because you make their lives easier.
You generally do 1 or so jobs for a homeowner. GC's can bring you constant work for a long time if you maintain the relationship.

2/1/17       #8: Faceframe vs frameless/ semi-custom ...
Larry

Pdub, what do you use for banding? We are a commercial only shop, 2mm PVC is our standard for everything including drawer boxes. Generally will not use .018 as it isn't durable enough for commercial work. Use 1.5mm veneer banding on veneer doors. 3mm PVC is generally spec'd on medical work along with 5 knuckle hinges. Try to talk people out of using HPL banding, too easily damaged. Our bander will do 20mm solid wood but I have never thought that is a good idea, too much stress can develop for a hot melt band to hold long term. That said, in our offices we have 3/4" maple bands that are still fine after 18 years. Lucky I think.

2/2/17       #9: Faceframe vs frameless/ semi-custom ...
Pdub

We do 95% residential. Our "standard" frameless gets 1 mil. wood finished to match doors. Our upgrade is 1/4" solid hand glued on. Those are all assembled, sanded, masked and then finished like a face frame. It's a pretty substantial upgrade!


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