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Earlywood ring separation white oak veneer

6/4/17       
John Lavelle Member

Attached are some images of rift white oak veneered doors provided by a general contractor that require finishing. The veneers appear to have unusually large vessels and visual signs of decay in earlywood. Machining by fabricator blew out veneer edges. I can't get a sound edge by easing tearout. Veneers are blowing apart during finishing. I suggested that the general contractor reject doors. He says to forge forward. Any thoughts on the condition of veneers? Do the defects appear to be of a bacterial nature? Do the vessels appear to be unusually large? I've never encountered anything quite this bad. Any thoughts or input would be appreciated.


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6/4/17       #2: Earlywood ring separation white oak ...
cabmaker

What is "earlywood"?

6/4/17       #3: Earlywood ring separation white oak ...
Leo G

Whatever you do I would write up a disclaimer about the condition of the veneers and that you will not guarantee the finish because of the unsatisfactory quality of the doors. Sign here.

6/4/17       #4: Earlywood ring separation white oak ...
rich c.

Are they imported? Looks to me like issues at the veneer plant with dull knives, and then poor glue up. Doesn't look to be good glue contact. If you need to fix that in your finishing department, you'll have to charge them for filling with paste wood grain filler before finishing.

6/5/17       #5: Earlywood ring separation white oak ...
Alan F.

Most contracts tell you not proceed, I would put it in writing and get a waiver, make sure someone higher than a field superintendent signs it.

A-

Click the link below to download the file included with this post.

Release_and_Waiver_of_Claims_Sample.pdf

6/6/17       #6: Earlywood ring separation white oak ...
John S  Member

I agree with Rich, that is exceptionally poorly cut veneer. It shows signs of washboarding (knife pitched into the log too far), and is definitely what we term "rough cut" (to say the least) in the veneer industry.

By the looks of it, the log was way, way under-cooked, if cooked at all. You cannot cut White Oak logs into veneer without softening it up by boiling or steaming it through and through. Whoever cut that veneer had no idea whatsoever what they were doing. I can't imagine what the veneer slicer knife looked like after that fiasco.

Run, fast, don't touch it, that veneer could literally disintegrate over the course of the next few months. It is GARBAGE!!!

6/7/17       #7: Earlywood ring separation white oak ...
John L

Thanks for all the responses:
The veneers have separations through and through wherever the vessels are located. The veneers are a heavy 3/32". They disintegrated just from a light orbital sanding with #150 abrasives, and just a light vacuuming pulled the veneer apart in places. The addition of a water based coloring reagent during the finishing process caused the surface latewood growth rings to pop up in places, forming a floating arc with two points of attachment if you can picture that. All the growth rings appear to be separated through and through, resembling ring shake across the entire surface. The vessel diameters also appear to be unusually large, nearly 2-times larger than those on all the hardwoods and veneers by other sources on the project. Under magnification, the tissue surrounding the vessels appears to be deteriorated, having a similar look to that of when carpenter ants nest in wood. I found an article about large vesseled white oak having no commercial value other than firewood, because it will not withstand processing, and there seems to be a correlation with that and anaerobic bacterial infestation, Clostridium, which breaks down lignin and phenol, the components which hold the tree together. I'm no expert, nor a botanist, so I could be wrong. I'm not certain that the processing was the sole underlying cause, yet perhaps a contributing cause, as well as an effect of something else going on. The doors are finished and installed, pocket doors nonetheless, so if failure is inevitable, somebody is in big trouble. I ended up using a somewhat elastic urethane resembling a spar finish in terms of softness, thinking the surface is like a loose deck of cards standing on edge, and that any movement would likely shatter a hard finish. Only time will tell.

6/7/17       #8: Earlywood ring separation white oak ...
John S  Member

Hard for me to say for a fact that it was only processing, could be more going on than I can get through a picture. But I know that if I had cut that veneer (or clipped it, or spliced it), it would have gone into the hog, rather than sent to a customer. Thick veneer is tougher to cut, but to me, sending out something like that to a customer is inexcusable! Just bad business; take the short term loss, don't lose a customer. That's just my two cents.

Good luck!

6/14/17       #9: Earlywood ring separation white oak ...
Scott in NC

cabmaker, Earlywood is synonymous with "Springwood". Latewood is occasionally used instead of Summerwood. Not sure where and when these different words developed, but I learned them all in Jr High shop class in the 1970's in Ohio.


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