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edge gluing direct from s4s/molder

10/13/17       
the google

i have an older sintex s4s machine that i'm trying to dial in.

right now, we use it to s4s a variety of parts but everything is processed further after it has been run through this machine, so the overall edge and face qualities (tear out and snipe) are mostly irrelevant. however, i'm rethinking our process and would like to be able to be able to run rough stock (jointed one face and straight edges) to clean up the edges and faces good enough to edge glue (and occasionally, face glue) directly there after.

i messed around with it a lot yesterday and haven't gotten the results i would like. i'm still fine tuning the pressure settings on the feed wheels and fine tuning the knives, but is what i'm looking to do even really possible without further processing after s4s? would a "better" machine accomplish what i'm asking? upgraded inset heads help?

10/13/17       #2: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
Bill

If you are edge glueing are you cutting to rough width before you S4S? If so that seems redundant.

The best glue joints I have see are straight off a good straight line rip saw. It is also very fast.

10/13/17       #3: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
the google

bill - we rip to a rough oversize as the second step (we cross cut to rough length first). as part of our modified process, we'll be ripping to only a few different widths to keep the s4s operator from resetting the width/left head on every piece run through the molder.

we have a grizzly slr and the glue quality edges we get aren't satisfactory. plus, we usually get some oil on the faces so i would prefer to keep glue-ready pieces away from this machine.

10/13/17       #5: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
Joe Calhoon

We glue up some times right out of the S4S T 90 moulder. The side head is basically a jointer with a 80" infeed fence and this machine is easy to dial in because of the fixed Teresa heads. We have knives for glue joints and this works well for edge gluing also. We normally rip the stock 1/4" over width with the SLR and sometimes face once on the jointer. Shorter stock can be run with rough edges using the floating side head. This works well for cabinet door panels. Twisted stock or dull knives will make for rejects that can easily be corrected on the jointer.

That said I still like to prep large and critical glueups on the jointer with a spring joint. I have a small import SLR and have never been happy with glue joints off that. I am sure a Diehl or similar is better.

10/13/17       #6: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
Bill

We use a newer Diehl that we bought slightly used. It is pretty amazing. The big key is to maintain it. We swap the chains once a year per the manual.

10/13/17       #7: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
the google

bill - swap the chains? can you please explain. i've never heard of this.

10/13/17       #8: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
Bill

I can't speak for the import machines. The Diehl's blade is below/between the 2 feed chains as the chains pass the blade they separate slightly to open the kerf. This action causes more wear on one side of the chain. If you ran it like that eventually it would wear the chain and race unevenly and no longer cut a glue line. Swapping the chains makes sure both sides wear evenly. The race looks like finger joints.

This is my understanding I could be off a little. I was told this my a Diehl technician when we got the machine. As I said I don't know the import machine so I don't know if this applies.

10/13/17       #9: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
Mark Elliott Member

Bill,

You are correct the import machines don't need to have their chains swapped out like the Diehl's do.

I have one too, and we swap our chains every year between Christmas and New Year break.

Mark

10/14/17       #10: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
Paul Miller

Website: http://MCCWOODWORKING.COM

I have a Diehl rip saw and we glue up right from our rips.

Many years ago, we did an outside railing in Jatoba, Brazilian Cherry. We used West Systems epoxy, but in the Spring, the glued handrail and glued posts came apart.

I called West Systems and I spoke with an Engineer about this failure. He explained to me that the surface of the Jatoba was too smooth. He said when the epoxy or glue is spread on the wood, it soaks into the open pores, creating a hooking pattern. He then said that with the smoother wood, there isn't enough of the open pores for the glue to hook onto.

Based on what he said, I think making the joint smooth will make a weaker glue joint.

I will also add that I have used Jatoba on interior railings and never have had a problem.

Like Bill, we swap out or tracks on the Diehl, but not that often. Its a chore. I bought my Diehl new in 1997. Other than a few switches, we have never had a problem. We also have a laser light on it, which should be standard equipment.

10/14/17       #11: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
DS

We've had a Sintex S4S for 20 years and every single piece of wood that's come out of this shop in that time has gone through that machine. There is no snipe and no tearout, and the machined edges are smooth enough to sand out by hand with 180 grit. I don't know what's going on with your machine, but it doesn't sound like you're getting the results you should be getting.

10/15/17       #12: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
the google

diehl owners -

are you achieving glue line joints on pieces beyond 5'? 5' seems to be diehl's guarantee for the lesser expensive machines (within my budget) , but we would glue 5' or under only 50% of the time.

also, i watched their video about creating a hollow joint. i have no idea how this is actually accomplished, but how do you cut both sides of a piece like this? i'd guess you set the fence and back it out after the piece gets started (like they do in their video)?

ds - i'd love some help with our sintex machine. do you mind helping me out here?

10/15/17       #13: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
Joe Calhoon

I don't know what type knife you are using but this is a good application for insert type.
Tersa, Terminis and Weinig are just some.
This takes knife setting out of the equation and as DS mentioned you get a good finish right off the knife. Even against the grain with no way to avoid this on a four sider.

10/15/17       #14: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
the google

joe - thanks. i am considering inset heads for my sintex. they are $3k for four heads so i wanted to make sure everything works like it should before taking this plunge. i should be able to achieve similar results with the straight knives in the machine, once tuned up.

10/15/17       #15: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
Bill

We glue up more short boards than long but we get good results on longer glue ups, greater than the guaranteed length. A sprung joint is very subtle. Your concerns about it are not warranted in my estimation.

We have a jointer that I brought to a machine shop and had the bed surface ground while it was together on a massive machine. It is the most perfect jointer I have ever owned. I feel we get better joints on the SLR and it is considerably faster.

It is a tool I would not do without.

10/15/17       #16: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
Paul Miller

Website: http://MCCWOODWORKING. COM

I don't believe we have a problem gluing up longer lengths. We rip a straight edge and then slide the board to the fence. If the board does not move to one side or the other, it should be a good straight cut.

That is where the Laser light comes into play, because you watch the laser line on the board, being sure not to wander.

The rip saw is a tool you take for granted until it doesn't start up. I own the less expensive model and it has been just fine.

10/15/17       #17: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
David R Sochar Member

In have had several Diehl saws to work with over the years. The lumber yard ones were trashed and had heavy wear on one chain since they were never swapped. $8,000 in parts a week later, it was smooth as can be, and would make about 4,000l/f of 16' gluelines everyday, for years. We continued on Diehl's recommended maintenance and never had a problem. The Diehl people will help you evaluate a saw - they track parts and service to every machine they have made.

Even on a Diehl machine that may not be certified as 'glue line' capable, the parts come out well enough to be glued, as long as there are no kinks. Be sure you have a good laser set correctly and an operator that understands the saw.

Random width can still be run on the 4-head, just have the catcher on the ripsaw turn thing edge up on a cart, and place according to width. We could change the width between the parts on the Quattromat in about 5 seconds. Our Quattromat was like Joe's L90 with a joiner indeed table and a joiner side head: both of them were capable of straightening a blank.

We ran ripsawn parts thru a Quattromat with HSS auto set knife heads - Weinig's Tersa type knife. It made changing knives a no brainer, and eliminated set up times. We regularly glued up stock coming off the machine. The HSS, when sharp, gives a shiny surface that is open pores and not burnished like it is with dull HSS or carbide (my opinion). Yellow glue was perfect for 95% of what came out of the Quattromat. If you have more than a day in tuning, you may be missing something important and need to call a tech in.

You already know this, but I would buy the best equipment you can. The Diehl saws are tanks, and once repaired and set up, will run trouble free for well over a lifetime. Just like the sun coming up, the most dependable machine in the shop. A low price machine claims to do what the better machines do, but then cannot do it. If it did, the more expensive machines would no longer be made. It is an example of "you don't know what you don't know" if you have not worked with one, but the difference is huge.

Look at auction and used sites. There is a lot of good stuff out there. Visit & tour large shops (Morgan Door in Wisconsin is one) so you can see how these things are used.

For all the talk about lean this and that, saving seconds here and there (which is all fine and good), I will bet you have already 'paid' for a Diehl by monkeying around with a Grizzly, you just don't have one.

Diehl Services Website

10/16/17       #18: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
Bill

I agree with David, Diehl/quality is well worth the expense. Some of the best money I have spent.

I looked it up, I paid $13,500 for the 2004 saw in 2010 and $3,200 to transport it. At that time a new one was $31,000. It was hardly used.

Another example, we have a few Dewalt miter saws around the shop and a couple Omga miter saws. At first glance the Dewalts are fine and meet the need. But over time if you cut a piece of wood on the Omga you realize it is a totally different animal. I have a smaller Omga miter saw that we bought in 2001 and it is still as accurate as the day we bought it. Over time we have replaced springs, table inserts and the main switch that is it. Over that same period of time we have thrown away several portable saws. For certain cuts people walk across the shop to use the Omga. That is the real test.
$3,900 for a 14" Miter saw sounds crazy. If it does a better job and lasts forever maybe it is not so crazy. I have my eye out for used Omgas because I know you can't kill them, a switch, belt, spring, table inserts and it is as good as new. The next time a portable saw fails if I have not found I used one I will likely pop for a new one.

Good luck!

10/16/17       #19: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
the google

bill - what machine do you have and what thickness and length lumber are you typically getting glue joints with? what is the finished product you are producing?

i'm looking at a couple esl-20's. the diehl people aren't really recommending this machine for thicker stuff (8/4) and longer boards. this is mostly what we work from. i'm not sure if they are being overly cautious as to this machines capabilities, or just realistic.

i understand about getting nice equipment. i know you know that it isn't that easy (especially if you are married and have four children - i might know such a guy...). otherwise, i'd have a lot of martin machinery!

i do appreciate greatly the contributions made here on woodweb as knowledge is more powerful than any piece of equipment.

10/16/17       #20: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
Paul Miller

Website: http://MCCWOODWORKING.COM

I have a Diehl ESL 20 TT. I have owned it since 1997. It's the only rip saw I have every owned. 8/4 stock is difficult for us. So, your sales rep is probably more knowledgeable about that issue. 4/4 and 5/4 are ok. 6/4 and thicker is more challenging. Our stock comes to us, generally rough, some times surfaced. Surfaced is worth the $50m they charge. Much easier to rip.

10/16/17       #21: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
Bill

We have an ESL-35 the blade is driven by 15hp. We cut mostly 4/4 for raised panels. Some 5/4 in longer lengths. Some 5/4 moulding blanks. It looks the same as an ESL-20 not sure of the difference.

I have no experience with thicker material.

10/16/17       #22: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
Joe Calhoon

In fairness I would say my import Oliver SLR has served us well. I know the Diehl's are good but I bought the Oliver strictly based on footprint. Its the only Eastern machine in the shop. It takes up about the same space as a Unisaw. We work mostly 5/4, 8/4 and thicker usually rough ripping H&M or rough timbers first and it works fine for that. The saw rips straight if the wood is well planed.

When we are gluing up large table tops and panels we have glue joint knives for the T 90 and makes for a nice job of keeping the faces flush during clamping.

10/16/17       #23: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
the google

joe - what are the glue joint knives that you speak of?

my intent with my sintex is to get inset heads (or trade it for a larger capacity machine) that will give us glue ready edges. we have a spiral head jointer and this seems to give us the nicest, glue ready joints we're capable of producing to date.

10/16/17       #24: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
Joe Calhoon

The knives I use in the T90 are unique to Martin and made by Leitz. They are inserts that go in the Tersa head with simple setting gauges.
The advantage is any setup can be made in minutes - corner rounding, T&G, glue joints, back out and the such. The disadvantage is knives take a while to get and depth of cut is limited to 12mm.
Its worked well for us though.

I believe Terminus has a similar system.

We still use our Martin jointer with spring joint function and Tersa knives for most critical glue ups. We are not a high production shop though and can certainly see the advantage of a good glue line SLR saw in some cases.


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View higher quality, full size image (2016 X 1512)

10/17/17       #25: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
Bill

Joe I recall researching that machine or a very similar Martin 15+ years ago. It was a very interesting machine. Different thinking, creative.

10/26/17       #26: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
JR Rutter

I don't mind running panel staves S4S rather than just gluing off of a saw. It makes it easier to see small defects that can get hidden in H&M or rough lumber. As long as the side heads are maintained to cut well, the joints are great. If we were running a lot more volume, then I can see where a good glue line saw would be worthwhile, but S4S is an extra 10 minutes per kitchen...

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the moulder helps keep the edges square to the faces on boards that have a twist. This shows up as missed/thin sections and the stave doesn't get forced flat in the RF clamp and later spring back to twist the panel. We plane panels to skim off the glue and this gets rid of the thin spots. A clamp that doesn't press panels flat would avoid this issue though, I suppose.

10/26/17       #27: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
the google

thanks for all the help. i messed with it some more and kept getting slightly imperfect joints (on the edges). i just sent the knives out to be sharpened, since i've never had them sharpened (they did still feel pretty sharp, though). we'll see if that helps things out.

11/4/19       #28: edge gluing direct from s4s/molder ...
Jarin Smoker  Member

Website: http://www.seventrees.com

Joe,

I picked up a T90 a couple of months ago and we love it, but I want to do some profiling on it. Do you have a contact for the T&G knives form Leitz? I talked to someone at Leitz and he told me that I have to pick something from tersa's catalog, but I can't find anything.

Thanks in advance!


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