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Transition from Autocad to Wood cad/cam or Giotto or BSolid

8/15/17       
B Member

Hello Woodweb professional user
We are making decision to use new cad/cam program instead of Autocad.
There are three programs that came into our mind

1. Homag's Wood Cad/cam
Cons
- I heard that the program is not really compatible with the other machine such as IMA,Biesse, SCM group . I don't know if this is true or not?
- Very expensive
Pros
- They have standard library with parametric design which is something we really need
- They claim that their programs is suitable for one of a kind product (design from scratch)

2. Giotto
We don't really know about this program, in fact we know nothing. However, They claimed that the program can be adapted with any brand of the wood working machine.

3. bSolid from Biesse
Pros
1. They claimed that the program can be adapted with any brand of the wood working machine.
2. Quite cheaper ?
Cons
1. No library
2. 3D solid modeling instead of Cad based

Company Information
I'm running the furniture company which products are made of Panel wood and metal part such as Leg,Beam, connecting plate,etc.
Our product are quite scatter between residential, office furniture and commercial shop.
Around 60% our product are slightly difference from the standard product(Size,material, color)
another 40% are newly made product.

Current situation
We use autocad as the main design program.
The 3D drawing will be created by the Design team and sent to our client for approval. Normally, there will be 1-2 revision before approval due to adjustment between price and design.Sometime,we will have to rendering too.

After that, the 3D design will be sent to engineering team to make
1. Cutting &Drilling pattern
2. Generate part
3. Make the working plan (Cut --> Edging --> drilling,etc)
4. Summary of the material that will be used in that project

After that,the production guys will get the pattern sheet to input the drilling and cutting data in front of the machine to run it.

The point is, the CAD file from design team cannot be used by the Engineer team as it does not provide enough detail and both of them have to create the new file quite often.

The sales volume are around 10 million$ each year.
We use to tried to implement IMOS long time ago, I don't know why it isn't success as I'm not there at that moment. Inventor was introduced, but people seem to have very high resistance due to 3D modeling platform which they not really used to it.

Our company based in South East Asia and these are the company that has the representative in our country and be able to speak local language.
Please excuse me for my poor English.

Any opinion would be highly appreciate as we(my company) have limited knowledge about transfering between CAD/CAM data.

http://www.woodweb.com/forum_fdse_files/cad/811609.html

8/15/17       #2: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
david wishengrad

That's nature of proprietary formats. It makes things difficult, time consuming and expensive.

You really have 2 choices.
You can figure out what software really works for you and see if you can find machines that fit, selling anything that doesn't, or you can write your own code.

8/15/17       #3: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Gary B.

I think you should add another to your list. Microvellum. They've taken a huge turn in the last few years. If you're already designing in AutoCAD, you'll get the most bang for your buck by staying with that environment and not recreating the wheel on every project.

Using their Solid Model Analyzer, you can suck in the AutoCAD model and it turns into a microvellum product. Here are some youtube videos to peruse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V8gFYhSU7Y

https://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=gpKW29aiIJg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaU738JCY7w

I think you may find that MV gets you to that solid model faster than you were doing with AutoCAD alone, AND gets you the manufacturing information you need.

8/15/17       #4: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Pat Gilbert

Gary, just out of curiosity are there such conflicting reports about MV?

8/15/17       #5: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Gary B.

Pat,

I've been an avid MV user for over 10 years now. In the interest of full disclosure, I'm also President of the Microvellum User Advisory Board, (a volunteer position). When I started things were very good (Version 6) at least by standards back then. Somewhere along version, 6.5 things got rocky. Personally, I believe they hit a wall in development with the existing software platform. Version 6.7 had its quirks but was useable to get products out the door if you knew how.

I believe much of the negative stigma of Microvellum are from issues that are long gone. The software has changed so much in the last few years that it's simply a different program than it was. I think if people were to see the capabilities available now, they'd have a different opinion.

Of course, no software is perfect. Anything this powerful will come with a learning curve. Thankfully the new tools make that curve much less steep. In my opinion, the best thing MV has done is solicit direct feedback from its users for improvement opportunities, then actually work towards implementing those suggestions.

8/15/17       #6: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Pat Gilbert

Thanks Gary

The people I'm thinking of would fit into that category.

Prior to that the way they treated Cadcode was divisive as was I suspect the pressure on sales when Rodger Shaw was there.

Similar problems ended Pattern Systems. Some of those customers were livid with Pattern Systems.

I wonder if MV is more than a cabinet program though, I hear good things about Top Solid which I believe you used for a time.

8/17/17       #7: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
B Member

Thanks David
I think I would go for choosing software, writing ourself or outsourcing someone to do it seem like a bit too much work for this.

8/17/17       #8: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
B Member

Dear Gary
I saw quite a lot of people talking about Microvellum too, thanks for your suggestion.

However, what I truly concern is that in the implementing period, along with aftersales service, I need to make sure that there will be technician or at least the Sales rep who can speak our local language.

As it will be quite difficult for them to understand English and that is the main reason why out choice is very limited.

8/18/17       #10: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
yaakov katz

our polyboard + knest
can conect any type of cnc
(gcode,biesse,homag scm...)
price very good
have for now 10 language options
very powerfull
and optimse the nest results to avoid small parts moving without the need of skin onion

8/18/17       #11: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Gary Balcom Member

Website: http://www.Atlantacabinet.com

B,
What country are you in? What is the primary language required?

8/19/17       #12: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Dan

I would worry about buying a software from a machinery company. In spite of assurances it should work, does that company have any instances where their software is supporting other machines. In most cases software is not a profit center for machine companies, so support for someone using other equipment may be poor.

There are a few programs which take your 3d solid and can generate layered dxf's for your machine.

You mentioned Inventor and the resistance of the employees. If you had resistance to Inventor, you will most like have resistance to any software you bring in the door. Lastly, one of the advantages to AutoCad and Inventor is the user base and available employee pool which have a working knowledge of the software. If you choose a solution from a machinery vendor you will more than likely have to train each employee on staff and future employees.

Also, what type of work does your company manufacture. An example or explanation may help the readers understand your needs better.

8/19/17       #13: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Pat Gilbert

You really don't want to consider anyone but the biggest/best software packages.

It would seem to me that it boils down to Microvellum, Cabinet Vision or Topsolid.

I don't think Cabinet Vision will address furniture.

The other one to consider is Cadcode to tie everything together, in fact you might be better off continuing with what you are using and talking to Cadcode to tie it to the machines. As Cadcode doesn't care about your design package. They will integrate anything from a spread sheet to a data base to a 3d modeling program and make your machines connect.

At the end of the day all that really matter is that the machines connects to the software. As that is where the rubber meets the road. Everything else is superfluous.

The other thing is that Cadcode has the bonafides they taught Microvellum and others how to connect to machines.

8/20/17       #14: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
yaakov katz

Mr Pat
i think you not real know the options,if you put CV as one of the best ..
Polyboard much powerful then CV ,no need ucs to create new fitting new rules..
Imos also much powerful
im not talking about the toolpath itself
in this field CV is very bad
the order of cutting the parts ,also the lead in position ,not consider to hold the small parts ,and you must create onion skin ,and use very big vacuum pumps
in good algorithm you can use very small vacuum pump ,and onion skin only last 2 parts

8/22/17       #15: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Pat Gilbert

Maybe not considering I have never heard of Polyboard.

It seems to me that the OP needs software that has it's bonafides.

CV is bonafide, but not likely to suited to this application.

A lot of big dogs use Cadcode they are the paradigm for creating toolpaths and dealing with products other than cabinets.

8/22/17       #16: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Chad R  Member

I'm with Pat, CADCode. They recently started a Youtube page.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChl-AJKk4YAhVvK_-a4x8Bg

8/25/17       #17: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Brian H

I agree with Gary, Microvellum is really getting some good work done and are accomplishing what others are not.

8/26/17       #18: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Pat Gilbert

What are the odds that a non English speaking company is going to be able to navigate the nuanced and faulty halls of MV?

Best bet would be to stick with what they have and get Cadcode to tie it together.

8/26/17       #19: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Gary Balcom

Pat,

The OP never answered me on where he is located, or what the primary language is there. I believe MV is actually represented in several countries now, including China.

The trouble with cadcode is you can't see what you're processing. If you want to process everything from a spreadsheet, fine. But I can do that with MV any day, and I choose not to because I want to SEE what I'm doing before I get to the code on the CNC.

8/26/17       #20: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Pat Gilbert

Gary

MV has alienated plenty of shops with English as their first language. I shutter to think what that would look like when you add in a language and culture barrier.

What you call trouble some would call a feature.

Logic dictates that the priority for any shop is to get good Parts on the shop floor as quickly as possible.

The question is which route does that better.

Not to mention which has the higher opportunity cost. Keeping in mind the training cost.

I would say a better challenger to the Cadcode Autocad combo would be Topsolid.

Of which you are oddly reticent.

8/27/17       #21: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
B Member

Hi professional guys.
Firstly please excuse me for my very late response as I'm just back from business trip and being on conference all day.
I also sincerely thanks for every opinion and will try to response orderly from the oldest date.
Dear yaakov katz
Thank you for introducing me to Poly Board and Knetz, I will definitely take a look into it.
May I ask what is the "need of skin onion" ? (Sorry if it sound a bit dumb question)

Dear Gary Balcom
I'm in Thailand, we use Thai language as the primary language and in my country. The employees who use this program are, well, don't even know word "Parametric design" in English but he can explained in Thai. Quite sad story, I guess.

8/27/17       #22: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
B Member

Dear Dan
Yes, You got what I worried.
Homag and Biesse rep also raised this as their concern about transfer to other brand.
The resistance from inventor is that it is 3d modeling software which is difference from autocad, that what they're saying.
That's why we took a look on Homag WCC as it is CAD based program
Our product are
Office furniture
Work station with or w/o return cabinet Partition, Screen, Mobile cabinet
Residential
Bed , Closest, Kitchen, etc
Commercial mart
Financial bank branch include reception couter and mobile shop.

All of our product are combination between wood and metal, sometime, solid surface and glasses.

Dear Pat Gilbert
Regard to your
Microvellum, Cabinet Vision or Topsolid and CAD code response,
May I confirm what I understood?
Microvellum, Cabinet Vision or Topsolid are the cad based used for drawing the furniture, detail, section and so on with the ability to transfer the CAD drawing to machine.the CNC
Cadcode, on the other hand are the software that transfer the file from CAD drawing to machine.
like the CNC preparation in this Inventor's link
http://woodworkforinventor.com/en/home/features/cnc_preparation

Dear yaakov katz
I'm not sure how can Vacuum pump related to CAD CAM software (this may sound a bit like a childish question) also I'm also not sure about the Onion skin, will take a look on google and youtube, hopefully I will understand it ;)

8/27/17       #23: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
B Member

Dear Pat
Thanks again for your comment, although I'm not a big dog, I will take a look at this option.

Dear Chad, Brian H
Glad to have your opinion in our conversation.

Dear Gary
Thanks for your comment regards to Cadcode. Even I'm not really sure what you are talking about, I will try to googled it till I find out.

Dear Pat
I just visit Top solid and see some god stuff there as I also have 2 Mazak lathe and milling machines in metal lines which is quite interesting.
http://www.topsolid.com/download/documentation.htm

I will try to make conclusion of Pros and Cons in particular software and hopefully I will get to the trial version of them very soon.

Just for update
The Homag rep also talking about demo, I will update the review as soon as my Engineering and design team finished this.

Ok guys, Thanks again for all of the comment. This is more than I could expected for the helps from anonymous.

8/27/17       #24: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Gary Balcom

B,

Thanks for the response. Indeed the language barrier will be tough. Microvellum won't be the right fit for you. Good luck in your search.

Pat,

I'm honestly not sure what to say here. I'm not an advocate of TopSolid for manufacturing capability. From what I saw during the few months I tried to make it work, it lacked where the rubber meets the road (shop floor code and documentation). It's design capabilities were impressive, but that's where it stopped.

Do you know of any custom shops using CadCode? The OP mentions 40% of his requirements are custom one offs. I can't see anyone doing that in CadCode....How would you prove the output without going through all the CNC programs? I see CadCode as a great dinosaur of the past honestly. I bet it would work great IF you didn't have to design anything, or if you only built from a set catalog of designs with some size changes.

As an aside, we are closer to that kind of shop than most. About 85% of what we push through our shop is out of our catalog with only size variations. But, mainly for the other 15%, there is no way I'd choose something that didn't allow me to see the result before it's too late (when the operator is confused at the machine). Also, I can't imagine trying to customize any product in that environment. Our culture has moved towards mass customization. In my opinion, that product doesn't fit the mold anymore.

8/27/17       #25: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Pat Gilbert

It depends on the definition of custom. But I have seen a few but it would be only parametric changes I think.

I didn't notice the 40% custom, if he means custom as in non parametric products that is.

I know of one shop that switched from MV to Topsolid who is highly custom.

I guess there is still no holy grail unless you build cabinets?

8/27/17       #26: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Gary Balcom

Pat,

I've never seen a project that couldn't be done in MV, but could be done in TopSolid. (Short of a Violin, or a car) Years ago, it was significantly harder in MV to do highly custom work than it is today. Now, you can draw anything you want as a solid model, even pull in a model from Sketchup, Solidworks, Inventor, etc. MV has a process to use analyze all of this data and create its own product based on the geometry. It's quite amazing really.

But beyond a model created by hand, they've come up with some tools to speed even that up. their Unique Product Builder module (UPB), will create a 3D model for you based off of a 2D sketch (Plan or Elevation). Extruded Product Builder (EPB) will create custom die walls, curvilinear desks, etc. in a fraction of the time it used to take, or will take by hand in other software. Take a look at their youtube channel for more information. This isn't smoke and mirrors. With EPB, you draw the section you want, then assign a construction path. You have the ability to place joints where you see fit, and several other useful features. This is a ridiculous improvement over previous techniques. Microvellum is capable of much more than boxes.

8/27/17       #27: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Pat Gilbert

Thanks Gary

I'm not in the market for software anymore.
MV has a headwind called the reputation to overcome.

8/28/17       #28: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Chad R  Member

Website: http://www.northwayind.com

TopSolid Wood is making leaps and bounds in the states also. Since Olivier has been placed in the US, many changes and things being added for the US customers.

https://youtu.be/FWskGKAi-wk

9/4/17       #29: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
B Member

Just A little update.
I'm still not getting the Demo, so cannot tell if WCC is cool with me or not.

About the definition of customized product versus parametric design.
The 40% I mentioned as customized are excluded of
1. Change in size/color/finishing material(excluded Veneer)
2. Changing Leg type such as (Square steel to Bending Pipe,Aluminium Leg,etc)

Here's the thing I'm not sure if parametric design can do or not in each program
1. Change the type of hinge when the cabinet's front panel change from wood to glass
2. Change the dimension of drilling hole after we choose soft close/none soft close hinge

There are so much thing I'm not sure about "Parametric design" apart from automated dimension changing.

Guess I have another topic to learn.

If anybody have the list of something like parametric design can do, that would be greatly appreciated.

1/26/18       #30: Transition from Autocad to Wood cad ...
Chevy

Website: http://keysoftwareservice.com

Bsolid is very nice stuff,,,I made a few videos and manuals when I worked there,,,,,woodcad/cam is also very powerful,,,

Bsolid is specifically designed to work with biesse bh660 controller,I does create 3d models and dxf with addons,,

Same with woodcad cam- designed for homag/Weeke

Topsolid has a challenge with their post processors,(my experience)

Microvellum has similar issues but when they set up ,, is runs like clock work,,best experience with shops with 5 or more automated machines

Cabinet vision ultimate is perfect for small/medium shops

Just my opinion


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