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Weeke Vs Anderson Vs Biesse Vs Omnitech

4/26/16       
Jeff Member

Website: http://www.FFTcabinetry.com

I've got a 3 man custom cabinet shop and we're looking to add a CNC router for nested base. We've spoken with 3 sales guys from Weeke, Biesse and Adnerson who sells Andi & Omnitech. I've done quite a bit of research and am becoming overwhelmed with all of it. I'm basically looking for anyone's comments or recommendations on the machines. With Weeke we are looking at the Vantech510. Biesse is the Klever1530. Anderson is the Andi SUP TC+D. And Omnitech is the Selexx Pal 510. Biesse seems to be the cheapest, Then Omnitech and Weeke/Anderson as top $$.

4/26/16       #2: Weeke Vs Anderson Vs Biesse Vs Omni ...
Mike

Jeff,
If the Anderson has a Fanuc control, get that one and pass on the others. I have heard stories. One of the stories is happening right now across town. I won't mention names because those people have threatened in the past about passing along true stories.

4/26/16       #3: Weeke Vs Anderson Vs Biesse Vs Omni ...
Jared

No company has a clean record, so take the anecdotes about how terrible one particular manufacturer is with a grain of salt. My advice is to consider what your support scenario looks like: is there a tech within driving distance? Where do parts ship from? Can you get them yourself from McMaster or Grainger, or do you have to wait for the slow boat? Talk to locals that own the machines and hear their stories first hand to get an idea of what ownership looks like.

4/27/16       #4: Weeke Vs Anderson Vs Biesse Vs Omni ...
Sam Jackson

I think the most important thing is actually the software to drive the machine. Without integrated software even the finest cnc is your most expensive work bench in my opinion. Do you have design software that can generate the g code? We have cabinet vision with s2m centre driving and omnitech Selexx pal. The interface on the controller is great for us as we do no manual programming at the machine. If that's something you want to do I've heard that b solid for Biesse or woodwop for the weeke work reasonably well. The omnitech would definitely not be your machine for manual programming. We also have a rover 20 and have been very happy with Biesse service over the years. I've had the pleasure to work with 2 Biesse skills which were excellent. Having said that, my omnitech is built like a tank. Lots of metal zooming around! Great for mdf doors and such. Drop me a line if you want to chat further!

4/27/16       #5: Weeke Vs Anderson Vs Biesse Vs Omni ...
Jeff Fuchs  Member

Website: http://Www.FFTcabinetry.com

Mike I appreciate the comment about the Fanuc controller, but at the same time, I've not heard any horror stories online about other systems. Reality is, with any brand new system, you should not have any issues for quite awhile. And if you did, the factory would back you up. Fanuc is better longevity wise, with guaranteed parts, but that's if I'm looking for the machine to still be integral to the business in 15+ years. After the machine is paid for in 5 years, everything cost wise will just be par for the course. Still, this controller issue is part of my considerations for purchasing.
Jared, thank you for your input. I've heard and agree that talking with the service & tech staff is important. They will be who I call when this go bad, or I'm desperate for help. One benefit for me, is that we are located in NC and all these companies are within 4 hours of many shop. Except Omni-tech which is in GA a 6 hour drive. Still very close.
Sam, I just bought into Cabinet Vision and have every piece of software they offer, top of the line including the S2M. I'm in the process of learning that before I get the machine. I'm computer savvy, so hopefully 4 months should get me up to speed. Also, I've heard the same thing regarding Alphcam. A lot of people complaining about how difficult it is to use and learn. Whereas Woodwop & Biesse works are easy. The Anderson & Omnitech have small footprints which I like because it takes up less room in the shop and leaves me more flexibility. Also, they are more industrial weight wise and with Fanuc controllers, longevity will be longer then the others. The weeke is massive, with a bunch of wasted space and you can't' really lessen that up. Biesse has a good footprint, but everyone tells me how they are willing to drop prices by almost 25%, which in one sense is good for cost savings but also scares me that I'd be getting a CHEAP machine. I'm visiting all the companies next week, so hopefully that will get me all the info I need to make a decision. Thanks for all the input and if anyone has anything further, I'd love to hear it.

4/27/16       #6: Weeke Vs Anderson Vs Biesse Vs Omni ...
Mike

Jeff,
Just a couple of points, the machine across town is new, but the techs have been in nearly daily for over 3 weeks. Of course the company is standing behind it, but at some point you want them to leave so production can happen or just take the thing back.

I have never heard of anyone complaining about Alphacam being hard. Probably one of the most intuitive programs around for high level output. I don't know Biesseworks, but Woodwop is limiting in what the router can do, but if you only cut cabinet parts, it should be fine.

Over the years looking at machines the European models seem to have a lot of margin built into their list pricing. I wouldn't be too concerned about the 25%.

4/27/16       #7: Weeke Vs Anderson Vs Biesse Vs Omni ...
Jared

Woodwop is unbelievable crippled in my opinion, unless you want to treat your machine like a point-to-point. Before I bought my machine, I'd used Cabinet Vision and RouterCim extensively and had seen Alphacam and Enroute in operation by others. Woodwop is in dire need of a complete rewrite; it feels like software circa the Windows 3.1 days. The interface needs a lot of work, and localization to English from German is rough. It's good enough for any of your employees to walk up to the machine and cut a rectangle, but anything more complicated than that should come out of your CAM computer. DXF importing into WoodWOP from other sources is fiddly and error prone, and is not production-friendly. I wouldn't count it as a valuable addition to the machine, but more as a means to test its functionality before moving onto something more versatile.

4/27/16       #8: Weeke Vs Anderson Vs Biesse Vs Omni ...
Jeff Fuchs  Member

Website: http://Www.FFTcabinetry.com

Any thoughts on Thermwood and there new Cut Center?

4/27/16       #9: Weeke Vs Anderson Vs Biesse Vs Omni ...
Sam Jackson

Jeff,
If you have CV & S2M I think that would negate any advantage of the cut center. Might even be a step back as I don't know if the cut center has a boring block. not sure though. I only saw the youtube videos. Seems more of an entry to CNC product to me. Huge advantages if you don't already have a design program in place.

4/27/16       #10: Weeke Vs Anderson Vs Biesse Vs Omni ...
Kevin Member

Jeff,

I have been running a Biesse Rover for several years. I like the machine. The Klever is a smaller setup. I am very familiar with Biesse and have found them to be very good at responding to issues. Mentioned earlier was a comment about Biesseworks. The software is good very easy to pickup on. It has capabilities in customized parts as well as standardized parts(cabinet ends, stretchers, etc.). Biesse offers a week long training class. This should be taken. If you have any prior training it will be a snap.
Where I am we also use Cabinet Vision for the creation of nested programs. Cabinet vision has shortcomings when it comes to customized parts (reception desk parts, counters) The use of both compliment each other.

4/28/16       #11: Weeke Vs Anderson Vs Biesse Vs Omni ...
Jim

2006 Selexx Mate: 9000 hours. Fanuc controller and sevors. One switch in 9 years. It has been a very good machine. Using cabinetvision.

4/28/16       #12: Weeke Vs Anderson Vs Biesse Vs Omni ...
cabinetmaker

What Kevin said. Also look @ Onsrud

I like all my Biesse shit and getting ready to buy more, but that's me.

4/30/16       #13: Weeke Vs Anderson Vs Biesse Vs Omni ...
Gary B.

Jared,

I'm curious about your view on Woodwop. I really, really like the fact that woodwop resides directly on the controller and I can make quick parametric programs for things...but I don't program solely in WoodWOP. Most of my day to day programming is done in microvellum, then sent to the router as a .mpr file (woodwop file). This allows me to open it in woodwop if I want/need to, make any changes, then run on the machine...99% of the time, I run it exactly as it comes out of Microvellum.

What Version of WoodWOP did you have experience with? Our 2001 Weeke Point to Point has an older interface, which is a bit tougher. Our 1 year old Weeke Router has a much nicer interface in WoodWOP.

5/1/16       #14: Weeke Vs Anderson Vs Biesse Vs Omni ...
Rjm

I have owned a Weeke vantage CNC for 8 years. It runs at least 8 hours a day. I have 25 shop employees. I own equipment from nearly 1/2 of the major machinery groups out there and can say flatly that Stiles Machniery leaves them all in the dust for parts and service when needed. I'm not saying my Biesse, Scm, unique, etc..tools are sub par by any means because they are not--but none of them turn around parts and technicians with the same haste and consistency as stiles. I will admit that stiles service is pricey but none of it cost more than being down.

All of the machines you are mentioning are quality tools. Price is only a small part of the overall equation. All of these machines will thoroughly out produce the capacity of a three man shop--even a 10 man shop. Look closely at the machines weight. Weight reduces vibration which reduces wear which reduces loss of precision over time. Look at the motors...are they high horse power but not "continuous" duty? How are the gantry's built? What about the drilling heads? What size linear guide rails and ball screws are on the machine? What axis are the guide rails on vs what axis are there ball screws?....and why? Is there a touch off probe for measuring tools? Is their adequate vacuum? ask them to give you an in depth of all the routine service that needs to be done by you? These type of things should be considered.

Have you looked into a schmaltz vacuum lift? It makes things 100pct more efficient and better. Guarantees that one man can operate the machine. Best decision I made aside from buying the actual CNC.

With all of this said I would buy the weeke. I can't say I have had zero issues but I can say that it is a serious tool and has done a serious amount of work in the past 8 years. Many times running 12-16 hours a day for 3-4 months straight. We get really busy from July through November every year. Last year I finally added a beam saw...guess which company I went with? (Stiles)--and that is only because of their history of service with my company

Hope this helps

5/1/16       #15: Weeke Vs Anderson Vs Biesse Vs Omni ...
Jared

Gary B: It's Woodwop 7. I think my frustration with it is because I can do the same tasks a whole lot faster using other software. I like to draw my shapes with cad tools, stretching, trimming, copying and skewing as I go, and I've gotten pretty speedy at it over the years. I attended the Woodwop class that Stiles put on, and while the instructor was excellent and the curriculum well organized, I spent a lot of time grinding my teeth knowing I could do the exercises in seconds with a decent drawing program, parametrics and all. Doing them in Woodwop felt like trying to draw with a potato. Not a problem, right? Just draw in your cad program of choice and import the DXF! It turns out the importing process is a long way from being automatic. After assigning elements to the right layers, virtually every cut cycle needs to be modified once it's imported, because the defaults are frozen: draw your shape, import, and then fix the cut cycle to cut on the right side of the line with the right tool in the right direction with the right approach. It can be hundreds of mouse clicks for a complicated part. I'm told by the Stiles people that buying the professional version of the DXF import software can address this, but it seems like a cash grab that they don't send it with the machine. I'll stick with the tools that have served me well.

5/2/16       #16: Weeke Vs Anderson Vs Biesse Vs Omni ...
alex

I've worked with Weeke, Biesse and Fanuc based controllers for 18 years. They all have great support and service. It's really how creative the user is more than the intricacies of one software over another. Most companies have automated cad/cam software to program machines such as Mozaik, alphacam or mastercam. If you want a complete package from one source(machine, support and software) in my opinion for a shop like yours, you should be looking at the Thermwood Cut Center.

5/6/18       #17: Weeke Vs Anderson Vs Biesse Vs Omni ...
Ziyad Member

Homag group(weeke) has crossed 1.3 billion euro revenue in 2017. I doubt a company can get this big without it being the best. I believe SCM is around 630 million usd in annual revenue and biesse is more around 700 million euro. No idea about the felder group.
Homag is around twice as big as biesse.


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