Message Thread:
EnduroVar Alternatives?
6/11/16
I am a really small time finish user, and I only use waterborne products (plus shellac). As such, many finishes that are available to production shops aren't available to me. The most durable product I use is GF's EnduroVar, but the price is now up to $90+/gal and I need to find an alternative. SW's Kem Aqua Plus looks to be a suitable alternative, but I can't buy it. What other products should I be looking at and where can I buy them? I've never used Target Coatings products. They would be easy enough to get but I have no clue if any of them are as durable as EnduroVar.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
John
6/13/16 #2: EnduroVar Alternatives? ...
Target coatings hybrivar is comprable to the endurovar. If you are a very part time finisher take a look at Zar ultramax. Takes longer to dry but has the alkyd hybrid emulsion you are looking for.
6/13/16 #3: EnduroVar Alternatives? ...
Thanks for the info. I'm not married to the ambering of EnduroVar; in fact, I'd prefer to have a water clear product with a UV stabilizer in it. But I use EnduroVar a lot because it's the most chemically durable product I've used and have access to. So if my additional comments prompt any other recommendations I'd greatly appreciate it.
Thanks,
John
6/13/16 #4: EnduroVar Alternatives? ...
it's a shame you can't get SW (l didn't think anybody lived more than 20 miles from a SW store). I just switched from using Target to SW's Kem-Aqua plus for the WB finishing l do and l am impressed.
the pigmented finish sprays easy, dries and cures fast to a hard and smooth finish..Top coat with the clear and it is hard to tell it apart from their solvent CV in look and feel. Pack and stack in 24-36 hours.
the clear is nice too...sprays and sands well.
and l'm paying $34.00 a gallon as opposed to $55.00-60.00 I paid for Target. l'm a quality over price kinda guy but this product so far seems equal in quality at a 40% savings.
6/13/16 #5: EnduroVar Alternatives? ...
Thanks Nick, I do have a SW's store 10 miles from my house and, truthfully, I've never asked them if I can buy Kem Aqua Plus through them. I called the SW's Chemical group, now part of Sayerlack, about buying it and they told me they only sell to production shops in NYS.
OK, I'll go for the direct approach. A pro furniture refinisher told me he really likes Kem Aqua Plus, too, and the UV package is very appealing to me.
Thanks,
John
6/13/16 #6: EnduroVar Alternatives? ...
Both general and target make a poly that is very durable and should be about 20 dollars cheaper than the endurovar. General offers theirs in custom colors as well so there is no need to clear coat the color
6/13/16 #7: EnduroVar Alternatives? ...
I tried to go down the Sayerlack road but my guess is infighting between the industrial division and the paint division made the move not feasible(I live in small town so I get my product from a SW paint store as the nearest wood products store is 300 miles away) but they could get the Kem-aqua no problem.
There is no need to clear coat the pigmented finish as I believe it contains the same resin as the clear and I have done jobs without clearing but the customer wanted the satin sheen of the clear.
6/13/16 #8: EnduroVar Alternatives? ...
Jonathan, if the GF poly product you are referring to is Enduro Clear Poly, it is indeed a very good product; however, it's not as chemically durable as EnduroVar. It is about $25/gal cheaper, but it comes at the price of lower chemical resistance.
So I stopped into my local SW store late this afternoon and asked the guy if I could buy Kem Aqua Plus and he looked at me strange and said "Of course.". Good grief, why didn't I just do that in the first place? He quoted me $232 for a 5 gal pail, with 2 day delivery.
Feeling rather stupid....
Thanks for your help everyone.
John
6/18/16 #9: EnduroVar Alternatives? ...
What kind of "chemicals" are you exposing your EnduroVar to? I use GF's poly extensively for my cabinet finishing business and used the EV for my maple flooring in my kitchen. The EV is softer than the Poly that's for sure. Unless your putting your projects in harms way of lots of chemicals the Poly is plenty tough. It stands up fine to household applications. I've personally done test boards with multiple chemicals/food products. If your really concerned with chemical resistance maybe you should consider formica or Deco-form doors and drawer fronts or metal veneers.
6/18/16 #10: EnduroVar Alternatives? ...
Try 409, Fantastic, Windex, or anything with ammonia in it on something with HP Poly on it. Or spill some DNA or nail polish remover on it. All those things destroy it if you leave them on for any length of time. None of those except nail polish remover harms EnduroVar, and that does almost no permanent harm if you just let it evaporate w/o touching it. Or try setting a hot casserole dish on HP Poly. It will stick. Not on EnduroVar.
HP Poly is great stuff, beautifully clear and so easy to spray; I use it a lot for cabinets that I don't expect will see any cleaners or chemical exposure. But I won't use it for table tops or kitchen or bathroom cabinets. I'm not taking the risk of problems when I can use Enduro Clear Poly (even harder than HP Poly and almost as chemically durable as EnduroVar) or EnduroVar and know I have a much higher safety margin. And EnduroVar is plenty hard after at least 7 days cure time.
Just to be clear, the test boards I used had all cured for at least 30 days.
John
6/18/16 #11: EnduroVar Alternatives? ...
You're talking two different products. Enduro poly which I use and thought you were talking about is a commercial grade spray only WB. The Hi performance poly is a retail WB brushable finish. Good product but not as durable as Enduro poly. BTW unless your doing countertops (and I have) kitchen applications are vertical surfaces so the chemicals you mention have little to no effect. In my test boards (with Enduro Poly) I've used just about everything. Lac thinner will soften but only slightly mar the surface if left to evaporate over night(not many people use Lac thinner in their kitchens BTW). Interestingly mustard did the most damage with discoloration. This whole thing about chemical/scratch resistance is sort of a red herring. In kitchens you really need "water" resistance. I've seen commercial kitchens with stainless cabinets and countertops get stained and scratched. No matter what you use if you abuse it enough you'll eff it up.
6/18/16 #12: EnduroVar Alternatives? ...
Well, you weren't specific when you said GF's Poly, Bart, and they make two products, HP Poly and Enduro Clear Poly. OK, I agree, Enduro Clear Poly is a very good product and I use it a lot. It sprays like a dream. But it's still not as chemically durable as EnduroVar. We can argue about whether or not you need the level of chemical durability EnduroVar has, but better is better. You are kidding yourself if you think kitchens don't get exposed to anything more than soap and water. My wife, among others, has proven many times over how incredibly unknowing consumers are about what not to use to clean furniture. Windex cleans windows, right? So it must be OK to clean furniture, too. Fantastic cleans greasy countertops. Geez, my cabinet doors are greasy; I think I'll use see how well it cleans those. And on and on. Enduro Clear Poly stands up to nearly everything EnduroVar does, but not quite. The biggest problem in my testing was to ammonia containing cleaners, and that's a real concern as so many people use them. However, it is substantially cheaper than EnduroVar, and is definitely a lot more price competitive with alternative products I've looked at. I probably could just move to it w/o issue, but if I can find another product equal to EnduroVar at lower cost that would be a better choice to me.
John
6/18/16 #13: EnduroVar Alternatives? ...
Yeah I've been kidding myself for 17yrs and over 200 kitchens with 2 call backs (on pigmented finishes) for warranty issues. Come on man you're splitting hairs here. I used multiple household cleaners including straight bleach, 409, windex, simple green, straight orange, lemon and lime juice and every solvent in my shop etc... There's plenty quality WB finishes that'll do the job. Proper prep and application are key.
cheers and good luck
6/19/16 #14: EnduroVar Alternatives? ...
Thanks for your perspective, Bart. Which WB finishes do you recommend for kitchen cabinets?
John
6/20/16 #15: EnduroVar Alternatives? ...
well in light of this whole debate i did a test for myself. Using my standard schedule. stain, two coats of enduro lacquer, two coats of enduro poly. Dried for a week.
This is on 8/4 alder sealed on one side.
Submerged in soapy water and let dry. I then puddled
1. wd40
2.vinegar
3.alcohol
4.windex
5.bleach
All were allowed to sit untill dry. the only thing that left a mark was the bleach. and it only left a whitish ring. the coating is still fully intact
6/20/16 #16: EnduroVar Alternatives? ...
Thanks for posting your results; they are similar to mine although I never tried WD-40. Give an ammonia containing cleaner like Fastastic or 409 a try, or just straight ammonia.
John
6/20/16 #17: EnduroVar Alternatives? ...
John,
A question: there's an amateur site called sawmill creek. Are you the same guy that answers all the questions there? I look at it occasionally and if it is you, it seems you have big footprint there.
I agree with Bart on cleaners. What's wrong with Fantastic etc.? I've used it on many finishes with no ills.
|