Message Thread:
finishing dispute
11/27/16
Help! I just completed remodeling a stair case for a customer, He was responsible for the hiring and execution of the finishing process. The painter he hired came in and stained the treads and then proceeded to apply a topcoat without ever sanding other than to hit them with a sponge sander. Obviously, the treads look awful and the homeowner is blaming me for not sanding the treads. In over 50 jobs like this, it's always been the painter/finishers job to do the final sanding. Also, my understanding has been that once he applies any finish, he's responsible for any issues. can anyone lead me to a written code or ethics guide that will clear this up?
11/27/16 #2: finishing dispute ...
Painter is responsible. He is in charge for the next steps to complete the job.
If you took a dirty car to get painted and the body shop just painted without cleaning or prepping it, it would be his problem. I'm sure we'd all agree it's the body shops responsibility. Same as in your case.
11/27/16 #3: finishing dispute ...
once the painter applies any coating they have accepted the surface as ready for finishing and the responsibility for the outcome.
That said in my neck of the woods (So.Oregon/No. California) the woodworker is responsible for the white wood finish sanding, so if it's rough or full of RO swirls I'm on the phone to inform them of the condition of the project and the cost of getting it right before I start any finishing.
11/28/16 #4: finishing dispute ...
Nick...what is the "whitewood" that you refer to? The stairs in question are red oak.
11/28/16 #5: finishing dispute ...
It's my understanding that 'white wood' just refers to any wood after fabrication but before finishing.
11/28/16 #6: finishing dispute ...
If there is nothing in writing between you, the owner, or the painter, then no one is wrong or right. The history and your explanation is just based on assumptions. So it will be purely negotiations now. Depends on who flinches first, and if no one does, get a lawyer.
11/28/16 #7: finishing dispute ...
In the Cabinet Shops I have worked in, the Cabinetmaker does a sanding of the completed cabinets. Some do a real fine job and others would just do a belt sanding with 100 grit and call it a day.
Also, in the Cabinet Shops I am referring to, the Foreman in those various shops would make sure the Cabinets were presented to the Finisher in a ready to finish condition, OR they would say that the Cabinet Makers do a quick sanding and the Finisher does the final sanding.
Its pretty normal for the Finisher to do some raw wood sanding, the product may have been scuffed/marred/scratched or dinged as it was being moved from point A to point B.
With that said, if a product came to the Finisher with badly cross grain scratches left over from a belt sander or giant swirl marks left by an orbital, its wise to ask the Foreman if they wanted the Cabinet Maker to re-sand them OR would they prefer that the Finisher stop what their doing,slow down the work flow and sand the Cabinets themselves.
In the case of finishing stair parts, I think the builder should do a careful sanding with say..100 grit, maybe following it up by sanding with the grain with 120 grit. The painter should then do a final sanding to get the parts ready to stain/clear coat.
On a side note Norm, a Wood Finisher approaches the finishing of a piece of wood differently than say a Painter does.
Some Painters go the extra mile and some just geterdone no matter what.
Any way you can post some photos ?
11/28/16 #8: finishing dispute ...
The finisher is responsible to assess the wood before they apply any stains or coatings. If they find them unacceptable then they either need to stop immediately and report or never start in the first place.
Sometimes it's difficult to see a not great sanding job until the stain is applied. But you don't go and stain the whole stair system knowing that it looks like crap and then expect to blame the guy before you. It's absolutely your responsibility to stop the work if there is a problem.
11/29/16 #9: finishing dispute ...
Agree with Leo! The Finisher is now responsible for the final product. Once he/she accepted to commence the work, they own it and end of story.
11/29/16 #10: finishing dispute ...
agree with Leo.
the finisher has an obligation to insure the wood surface is ready for finish before any stain or sealer goes on.
if the finisher sees that the wood surface is not ready for finish, he/she should kick it back to the woodworker, or get it ready himself.
Ideally the woodworker/cabinet maker hands off to the finisher in a fully prepped state- meaning no machine marks, no glue spread, no puttying required etc.
Still, the finisher cannot proceed with an inferior/unprepped surface and blame the woodworker.
once they start on it, they own it.
11/29/16 #11: finishing dispute ...
happens all the time. your shop gives a realistic quote for finishing including sanding thru the grits ,cleaning , staining , seal, clear. customer freaks and says hell my painter will do it for 1/3. and of course you say well, i will remove machine marks, and prep before finishing is on you. they get what they paid for, and blame you . partly because they dont want to admit they re the ones to blame. but, your position should have been stipulated in contract.
11/29/16 #12: finishing dispute ...
To all the great responders here. thank you for your input! Yes, I agree that I should have been clearer in my quote about the sanding issue. My problem is that I used to contract the trim in high end homes in Tennessee & Florida, and this never came up as an issue. In fact, all the painters that I worked with preferred to do all of their own prep thereby ensuring that they had control of the quality of the finish.This is the first job of this sort I've taken since moving to Alabama, and boy do I regret taking it! From now on, I'm staying in my shop doing what I love, building custom furnishings and working with reclaimed wood!
11/29/16 #13: finishing dispute ...
I'm thinking prep of stair treads and risers is way easier before installation. With all the inside corners, getting a good preliminary sanding job is almost impossible after installation.
11/30/16 #14: finishing dispute ...
As a custom builder/contractor for over 30 years, while also operating a small cabinet shop, I'll chime in. I've built my share of custom stairs along with a host of other built-ins and I would always leave the product sanded to the point of being ready to accept a finish. That being said, I would also expect that my painter would touch up sand any part once installed as even the best situation, during installation and the time until painting, it is exposed to the jobsite full of other workers and installers. Once the painter noticed a problem in this case I think he is absolutely required to either bring it to the attention of someone or stop until further notice. What exactly is the issue, cross grain scratching, etc.?
11/30/16 #15: finishing dispute ...
John B. I think the main problem is that the customer hired a lousy finisher. I sanded all the treads as I installed them. What I saw in my brief look was splotchy spots, many looking like the stain was applied unevenly and left to sit too long. They were using a dark walnut MinWax, which in my opinion, is a terrible stain and should only be used with a conditioner. But, I've hired a lawyer and we'll see how it all pans out. If I was the homeowner, I'd make him pay to have a professional hardwood floor finisher come and do a complete refinishing job.
11/30/16 #16: finishing dispute ...
Hi Norm, can you post some photos ?
12/5/16 #17: finishing dispute ...
Yep, same old story. Builder is responsible for handing over a sanded product, but the finisher is responsible for making it look good. If I were installing primed baseboards, I wouldn't sand them afterwards. That's the finishers job.
12/5/16 #18: finishing dispute ...
Norm:
Just wondering...what wood were the treads fabricated from?
12/5/16 #19: finishing dispute ...
I'm not Norm,dean c, but the wood in question, according to Norms reply on 11-28-2016 is Red Oak.
12/5/16 #20: finishing dispute ...
Thanks Robert. I missed that!
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