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Subject: Re: Pinks Spots on Painted Cabinetry

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Message Thread:

Pinks Spots on Painted Cabinetry

7/3/17       
Bryan Kappenberg

Website: http://www.rbscorp.com

Curious to see if anyone out there has come across this condition. I have 4 jobs that are experiencing this and am totally stumped.

Cabinet Details:
Maple face frames and doors
Some have mdf center panels
Sherwin Williams paint and clear top coat - conversion varnish

Cabinets are installed and over time (2+weeks) pink spots appear.

Sherwin cut a cross section and said that it is in the top coat and they have never seen this before?

Any insight appreciated.

Bryan K
Riverhead Building Supply


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7/3/17       #2: Pinks Spots on Painted Cabinetry ...
Rick Mosher

My guess would be either they used a UTC to tint the paint was wasn't completely ground into the resin like it is supposed to be.

Those would be dots of the red tinting color separating out or you have used a powdered oil based dye stain and the particles are floating around in the air and settling in the wet finish. (That's if it for sure is in the clear coat.)

7/3/17       #3: Pinks Spots on Painted Cabinetry ...
Leo G Member

Any chance there was a catalyst splatter that got on the paint? Going pink is a sign of over catalyzation.

7/3/17       #4: Pinks Spots on Painted Cabinetry ...
nick

I've suffered through Rick's first premise (undissolved red UTC {in pigmented shellac}) and it looked exactly like your photos but occurred differently; it showed itself after the 1st pigmented topcoat dried (I was using a WB finish system and this MAY BE why it behaved differently) so all I had to do was apply another coat of non-tinted pigmented shellac to solve the problem.
Another possibility is you have stray bits of undissolved UTC/dye in your spray lines.

7/5/17       #5: Pinks Spots on Painted Cabinetry ...
Bryan Kappenberg

Website: http://rbscorp.com

It is definitely "in and through" the top coat. We sanded through a spot, and SW cut through and examined with a microscope, clearly showing the pink spot stopped at the bottom top coat layer and did not extend into the paint.

Another crazy thing going on is that the pink spots are only present on wall cabinets and high on Tall units. No presence of spots on base cabinetry.

In 30' of cabinetry there are probably 500+ spots.

The paint and topcoat are Catalyzed Conversion Varnish. SW says there is no red tint of any kind in the paint formula.

All 4 jobs were installed by different contractors, nothing on the job-site in common that could point to source.

Thanks, Bryan K.
We are all stumped.

7/5/17       #6: Pinks Spots on Painted Cabinetry ...
chuck crawford

I had a somewhat similar experience using SW tinted vinyl sealer for my off white color coat then top coating with SW pre cat. It wasn't spots so much as a pink tint that only showed up after a coat of pre cat. We finally narrowed it down to a very small amount of magenta tint that the color called for, it was apparently getting pulled to the surface by the pre cat.

We tried the same formula without the magenta and no more pink tinge. It also didn't noticeably change the end color.

But you said no red tint of any kind so I'm stumped.

7/5/17       #7: Pinks Spots on Painted Cabinetry ...
Bob Niemeyer  Member

Website: niemeyerrestoration.com

Couple questions:
Are all four jobs only getting red spots on the uppers and on the higher areas on tall cabinets?

Are all four jobs the same batch of CV clear? Also was same catalyst used on all four jobs?

Are the red spots showing up on the insides of the doors?

Where all four jobs finished in your plant all "back to back" jobs?

Was anything done different on the base cabinets vs the uppers in the finishing room?

When you spray a "batch " of topcoat, what do you mix in? How do you mix it?

Is any other process going on in your facility, welding, grinding ect...

Do you have any of the clear left over? what is the batch number, does SW have more of the batch? Same for the acid used. run a test if time permits. Make a sample from the same batch but from new seal cans.

Do you use ovens to cure your coatings?

Rags, what do you use, do your finishers wipe off cabinets before spraying.

The two week window before showing up is leading me down a different path of thinking on this one.

Let us know
Bob

7/6/17       #8: Pinks Spots on Painted Cabinetry ...
Bryan Kappenberg

Bob:

All jobs were finished at different times over a 7 month period.

All jobs were sprayed out 1 at a time, in a complete run through the shop. Base cabs and wall cabs finished at same time.

No pink spots inside the doors or cases.

Supposedly same process for all cabinetry.

Clear came from different batches for each of the jobs.

UV Tunnel/oven is used to cure

Mixing and finishing happen in the same booth, no welding/grinding.

We have had many painted jobs in between these with no symptoms/problems.

Call me crazy, but I think it may have something to do with LED Lighting (high-hats) in the kitchens? A different wavelength of light reacting with the catalyst or something?

Again, appreciate the expertise and thoughtful replies. Going to scuff and spray out a door, see what happens.

Thanks, Bryan K.

7/6/17       #9: Pinks Spots on Painted Cabinetry ...
Bob Niemeyer  Member

Website: niemeyerrestoration.com

Bryan,
Thanks for the feedback.
You said they start to show up in about two weeks. Is this only on the jobsite ? Or have you had any of these spots show up on anything still in the shop?

7/11/17       #10: Pinks Spots on Painted Cabinetry ...
Bryan Kappenberg

The cabinets were manufactured and painted in the shop.

Spots appeared in the field.

No spots have been found during inspections to any painted cabinets in the shop.

7/11/17       #11: Pinks Spots on Painted Cabinetry ...
chris

have you tried putting a clear panel in place of one with the marks on it ?

7/12/17       #12: Pinks Spots on Painted Cabinetry ...
Bob Niemeyer  Member

Website: niemeyerrestoration.com

Bryan, From all the info we have we know the following:
Only on the upper half of the upper cabinets.
Not on the back of doors or on the insides
None on the cabinets in shop
Different batches of coating were used and the defect is only in the one coat of clear that is on top of the pigmented CV.

What do the spots look like under a microscope? Has SW done this?

What is confusing with this is that some of the defects are round and others straight short lines.

Is there anything at each install location that could be the same? HVAC,Tile guys, floor finishing, plaster guys ?

This is a good mystery.

7/14/17       #13: Pinks Spots on Painted Cabinetry ...
JeffA

If it were a pigment I would think you would see it right away. When I was a coatings tech I had an issue with white stained products turning pinkish. Not much but it only showed up on white products. I think it was in everything but you couldn't see it. It was discovered to be an iron contamination. Now that could of come from any number of raw material including tints, solvents or the catalyst used. Somehow by using 2 different catalysts in a certain ratio solved the issue. One of them helped to isolate the iron and it wouldn't turn pink or red over time. I'm writing this at 5 AM with only 2 cups of coffee in me, I hope it makes sense.

7/14/17       #14: Pinks Spots on Painted Cabinetry ...
Bryan Kappenberg

We are all totally stumped.

Nothing on job-sites in common, no trades/contractors in common.

I need a chemist!


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7/14/17       #15: Pinks Spots on Painted Cabinetry ...
Bob Niemeyer  Member

Website: niemeyerrestoration.com

Bryan, Good photos Thanks.

What type of finishing line is used at your facility? Carts, Track system?

Any chance of some type of work being done at your facility where a mist of something could have of floated on to the new finishes but took time to react.

I see more weird stuff with acid cured coatings than with Isocyanate based hardeners. Thats why I tend to use more 2k urethanes than CV's.

I think something got spattered on the finish that had no color to it, but over time caused it to turn pink as the coating cured out.

The pink color is completely even in the dry film from the top to base of the film. This most of the time will tell you it was in the wet solution, but sometimes you will see it migrate some into the white basecoat underneath when something is in the wet topcoat.
If something was to get spattered on to very fresh topcoat that had no color, but had the chemistry to react with the PTSA catalyst that CV uses this could cause a stain like this.
What is driving me crazy is the straight line spots, could these be a small run from the droplet? Are these lines running vert?

Have you sanded the pink spots off and recoated any of the panels yet? If so, the out come?

Have these cabinets been cleaned with anything?

Thanks,Bob

 

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