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water based stain

3/14/15       
chris

i am applying general finishes waterbased stain for a customer and i am struggling to get it put on and then get it wiped off before it dries. i apply it liberally and i still cant get it wiped off in time. any suggestions?

3/14/15       #2: water based stain ...
Denny J

Spray it.That is typically how I have always done it. They also sell an extender that will increase the open time.

3/15/15       #3: water based stain ...
nicko Member

i wish i knew the answer to that too. I have used water based stains on some jobs and struggled with it. Spraying is not always an option. small projects are easy but i had a large case work job to do once and had a lot of trouble getting it on and off.
and if you try to do it in sections and over lap it on to the part you just did it leaves lap marks.
try getting it on as fast as you can with a small lambs wool applicator. and then wipe quickly or get someone to help you do it
i quit using wb stain for that reason

nicko

3/15/15       #4: water based stain ...
Nick

You should try Targets WB stain...good open time, fairly deep penetration, good selection of colors and available online.
be forewarned it will raise the grain more than a bit on quarter-sawn or rift cut open grained woods and avoid sealing with Zinnsers Seal Coat as the stain will bleed through even after top-coating. I've not noticed this problem when sealing with Target 1000 or just self-sealing with their WB finishes.

3/16/15       #5: water based stain ...
JeffA

Propylene Glycol is probably the best slow solvent that will go into water based stains that will keep the stain open enough for you to wipe. It is extremely slow but when you wipe, most will come off with the stain. To ensure the stain is dry before clear coating, take a surface moisture meter and check the moisture percentage before you stain and make sure it is at that level before you apply the clear coat. Heat isn't necessary but a lot of air movement helps, like a fan.

3/16/15       #6: water based stain ...
Denny J

Another option is to go to the local pharmacy and buy some glycerine. In my early days of WB usage before technology improved I used to use this quite a bit. You only need a few drops per liter most of the time but it did help the older formulations.

To say spraying is harder on big panels is not necessarily true and in my experience it is actually the best time for spraying. You need to apply heavy enough to keep it wet then wipe off. It is faster than brushing and wiping.
But if you want to expand your skill set, the nest application I have found is the spray-no-wipe method. With a quality gun or pressure pot you can lay down a very consistent color faster than spraying and wiping.

3/17/15       #7: water based stain ...
Pat

Yep, this is still the weak link in trying to go all waterbased. Trying to wipe a large, complicated piece with fixed shelves or cubbies before it sets up is almost comically frantic. I've tried the GF extender, and it hasn't been super effective in my experience.

Target's stains are kind of a hybrid. They're water reducible, but still linseed oil-based, so dry time is longer than typical waterbased, but still way shorter than traditional oil stains. For blotch control, you use their waterbased shellac.

I can get decent results with both companies' products, but it's not fun!

I try to use WB for everything, but for certain woods, like oak, I prefer oil based stains.

3/17/15       #8: water based stain ...
Denny J

It is a shame the ICA CNA stains were never able to establish a foothold in the states. They are by far the favorite stains that I have ever used either WB ,Oil or Solvent. nearly 15 years after I first tried them there is nothing remotely close to them in the domestic market.

3/18/15       #9: water based stain ...
Pat

Denny,
I've tried their WB coatings in the past. Nice, but expensive. Are you saying they're not available in the US anymore? Manhattan Laminates comes up as a supplier here in the Northeast.

3/18/15       #10: water based stain ...
Jim

Denny J
The water based stains you are referring to. Is that just for new raw wood or will they work "very well" over an existing solvent lacquer stained finish? With just a scuff sand in between? Thinking about about changing the color and or touching up a damaged finish?

3/18/15       #11: water based stain ...
jonathan mahnken

the general stain will work well if you load it down with extender. I would go with 12-14oz per gallon. You will still have to work fast but there will be a huge difference

3/18/15       #12: water based stain ...
Denny J

Pat- No, I did not mean to imply they were not available, only that with their quality I would have wished they would have grown in popularity. In my experience they are only getting harder to get and that is a shame considering some of the substandard stuff that is increasing in popularity and actually turning people away from WB.

Jim- Yes, they can be used as a toner to tint WB clear coats. You can also look into GF dye stains or trans tint dyes as well. They are good fits for those situations.

3/28/15       #13: water based stain ...
Nick

I was remiss in not adding that besides the Target stain I also use another WB stain...that may/will alleviate the too fast drying lap lines/general unevenness common to so many WB stains. It is San-Sin Purity 0 VOC stain (not their gel stain).
(I don't know much about this company like it's availability). I started using it when my local paint store started carrying their full product line (interior/exterior) 3 years ago and customers requested this interior stain for their projects. In that time I've used about 20 gallons of the stuff (so not a lot but I'm starting to get a handle on it).
The best thing about it is; you can spray it on just like a dye and with half way decent technique you will get streak and mottle free results (I use a CAT SLP with a .8 needle/nozzle and the reduced pressure air-cap to spray out of a 2 gallon SS pot). It sprays so evenly that I doubt I've used more than 3-4 rags total with that 20 gallons. It dries in about 30 minutes, to get it darker additional coats are easy to apply. But be forewarned because of this attribute it's also easy to lose control of color consistency plus like a dye it will go through a couple of color changes while drying and when dry it will not look like it will when finished so you must be careful to be consistent with your application.
Other downfalls are; like all wb stains it will raise the grain and do not mix SW universal dye concentrates into it, they are not compatible (it gels the stains vehicle).
On the plus side 3 coats of the ebony will give you that hard to achieve no build absolute black.
It's an interesting product that is worth a look if you must go WB or no/low VOC.

3/29/15       #14: water based stain ...
chaim gottesman

I find that you can avoid leaving lap marks by pre dampening the wood.
This way the wood stays wet and the strain doesn't dry immediately. you'll have time to go over for a second pass.
It also means that the wood won't take as much stain so you'll have time to dial in your color.
Chaim


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