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Changing dye color under finish

3/22/15       
Andrew Member

I just built a large bedroom cabinet out of Sapele. The finish is TransTint dye (Dark Mission Brown) then sanding sealer and then two top coats. The sanding sealer and top coats are General Finishes Enduro Poly. The top had to be in two parts as the cabinets are 18' long. My client doesn't like the fact that the two halves are different colors. I selected the wood very carefully for similar color and grain and we dyed it with the same dye in exactly the same way. I pointed out that on some of the doors which were built from one board the color of stiles and rails looks very different from some angles and this is a characteristic of wood and it's called Chatoyance. She would like me to darken the lighter side but the only way I can think of doing that is stripping of the finish and re-dying it. That is a huge amount of work and I'm not confident it would be any or much better. Any idea on how to deal with it?


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3/22/15       #2: Changing dye color under finish ...
RobertJ

Well, I don't think I would use the term
'Chatoyance' to describe this phenomenon!

Take the unit back to your shop and start 'toning' it with the dye mixed in with your topcoat.....you may get there by using this method. Or, you may just have to make another cabinet for your client. Or, wait a month and hope UV rays bring it together.

3/22/15       #3: Changing dye color under finish ...
Bart

That's a bummer. Trans tint is a metalized dye and the color will last pretty well if it's not in direct sunlight. Over time it will fade and they should get closer in color. Also grain direction has lot to do with how color is perceived. From what I can make out one of the tops looks a lot leafier which can change the color. If it was me and you can't talk them out of it and it's just the tops I would just sand the lighter top pretty good but not to wood, scotch brite it and re-dye a coat or two of your dye, topcoat it and call it day. I mean it's wood if they wanted perfect then go with laminates or pigmented finish. People see all the industrial finish box store stuff and think it's all supposed to be uniform.

3/22/15       #5: Changing dye color under finish ...
Andrew Member

I hadn't thought of tinting the top coat so that's an idea. Bart will the dye stick to the top coat if I don't sand all the way to bare wood. It won't get much if any direct sun as there are big overhangs on the house and they have wood blinds which the seem to keep closed mostly. unfortunately the lighter one is closed to the window I think if they were reversed it wouldn't be so noticeable as the back of the room is quite dim. I can't change though as they are scribed to the wall which had several big bows in it. She will be okay with it if I can get it a bit closer.

3/22/15       #6: Changing dye color under finish ...
Robert Member

Well; color does seem just a wee bit different. Just make the lighter one match the darker one. Real bummer is is that it was installed without it really matching. I mean; after all it is a top and kinda important....no ???

I would say that if the customer signed off on the color sample and the color sample had such a discrepancy in color as your photo shows, your OK; other wise its a wee bit off.

3/22/15       #7: Changing dye color under finish ...
Andrew Member

She going to live with it for a couple of days but I think she will want me to darken it. The question is how?

3/22/15       #8: Changing dye color under finish ...
Bart

Absolutely the dye will stick. I'd hit it with 320 and scotchbrite it, spray your dye and mist it with SS to see where I am with color and go from there. The great thing about the dye is it's forgiving. It's hard to go past the color your trying to get to. I've done many a "toning" with dye. Usually in the shop before it goes out. One thing I notice is the leafier
piece is devoid of red. You may want to onsider adding a little red.

good luck

3/22/15       #10: Changing dye color under finish ...
Andrew Member

Thanks Bart. I will try that. Actually the pictures make it look worse than it is and the grain is actually pretty close over the whole board. I'm not much good with color as mostly I do the natural wood color or paint.

3/23/15       #11: Changing dye color under finish ...
John Member

Toning is the best way to adjust the color of the lighter piece. Transtint mixes easily into EnduroVar and it will adhere with no problem over the prior coats provided you scuff sand it with 320 or 400 grit. You need to make some test boards to practice on so that you get the right dye mix and concentration. It might not be as simple as just using more Dark Mission Brown; then again, it might be, so that's why you make sample boards. Normally, I'd shoot two or three lighter coats to build the color, but if you don't want that much build you really need to get the color and concentration dialed in so you can do it in one coat.

John

3/24/15       #12: Changing dye color under finish ...
Pat

TransTint dye is a concentrate and is not meant to be applied directly over a topcoat by itself. You should add it to your clear topcoat like RobertJ says, and sneak up on the final color by spraying multiple passes.

Cheers,
Pat

3/25/15       #13: Changing dye color under finish ...
Bart

Right Pat. That goes without saying. I've used lots of transtint. For Andrews situation you would just thin in H2O just like you would staining to whatever concentration you need. The problem I see in toning w/finish in his case is if you're off you end with lots of sanding and potentially a mess. also putting a toned w/finish piece next to a non-toned piece with clear topcoats could get ugly fast. With the dye solution IMHO you can bump color safer/easier.

cheers

3/25/15       #14: Changing dye color under finish ...
John Member

Bart, I don't see it that way. Toners allow you to sneak up on the color, just like you can do with dyes, with the added benefit that you see the color immediately and don't have to wait until you add your sealer, topcoat, etc. as you do with dye. I also don't see a problem with a toned piece next to one that isn't; if the color is the same they will look the same. Here's a sample board I made when I replaced the veneer on this dresser. The darker color in the top left corner is where I added a topcoat toner (Transtint in EnduroVar, actually) to adjust the color. The finished dresser is below; sorry about the small size of that picture, don't know how to make it larger. Hopefully, you can see that the top looks the same as the rest of the dresser even though the color was derived by different means.

John


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