Total Finishing Supplies

Professional Finishing

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

problems with shellac over poly...

12/10/17       
mike Member

Walnut burl veneer, wiped poly into wood and wiped surface clean. This was done to help set off the grain.
After poly had dried (15 days or so), sprayed fresh shellac on.
Once shellac had cured for several weeks, began sanding the finish level. After a week or so, shellac began showing signs of crazing and wrinkling in some areas.
I would blame the poly, but it had thoroughly dried, and it was not built-up.

As notes:
I mixed up the shellac with some lacquer thinner added to control runs and blushing. Sprayed on with HVLP setup.

Any ideas as to the why's, possible fixes (without stripping and starting over)?


View higher quality, full size image (2048 X 1536)


View higher quality, full size image (2048 X 1683)

12/10/17       #3: problems with shellac over poly... ...
rich c.

What poly? Minwax? I'd say the shellac is more brittle than the poly, and sets up a barrier issue. Basically a hard finish on top of a flexible one. I'd wash it all down with denatured alcohol to remove the shellac, scuff sand, then add more poly. Next time, ditch the poly if you want to use shellac. If you want a warmer color, use darker shellac flakes.

12/10/17       #4: problems with shellac over poly... ...
mike Member

I had never tried this before but I had a while back a fairly well-known refinisher's book, in which he stated that one could rub boiled linseed oil or tunge oil into the wood to pop the figure, before spraying with shellac or lacquer...I did assume that since there would be no surface build, that poly being a harder finish than either of the other two, would be an equal or better choice.

I reeeeally would hate to have to start over on this- but, if there is no other solution anyone has, it is what it is.
ANY ideas, experiences, or views on this method on using the oils would be appreciated.

12/10/17       #5: problems with shellac over poly... ...
rich c.

Shellac and lacquer are both harder than poly. Don't confuse durability with hardness. You also have to consider how "hot" the solvents are. Mineral spirits is a lot milder than denatured alcohol and lacquer thinner.

12/10/17       #6: problems with shellac over poly... ...
mike Member

my sentence wasn't clear I guess... I did not mean poly was harder than lacquer or shellac-- but rather harder than linseed oil or tunge oil...

12/10/17       #7: problems with shellac over poly... ...
rich c.

So you are suggesting putting a harder finish on top of softer again? No matter what kind of oil you put on the wood, the surface will always have some kind of residue on top. Wiping will never remove 100% of it unless there is some solvent used. Even then very difficult to remove it all.

12/11/17       #8: problems with shellac over poly... ...
mike Member

I am not attempting to promote anything.
Being still a relatively new refinisher (I admit I will have a lot to learn for a long time - I doubt I will ever be able to claim "I know") - I try to see a logical pattern.
As I said, a well known finisher mentioned in his book that rubbing BLO (boiled linseed oil) or tung oil into the wood before spraying with shellac or lacquer would help "pop" the figure of the wood (since both shellac and lacquer dry so much faster they do not seep in as deep).

I tried this replacing the oil with polyurethane (yes the fast drying minwax). In "my thinking" I considered that the poly would be 1) harder (than BLO or Tung- since it contains resins) and 2) would dry faster and a bit lighter.

Part of my logic was:
Cocobolo, Rosewood, etc., are oil woods (these natural oils do not cure at all). To prevent finish problems - shellac is commonly sprayed on to seal the wood and those oils away from a finish like polyurethane or such.
The finisher, I mentioned, suggested applying the BLO or tung (curing oils) and spraying shellac to seal this against the desired finish (i.e. basically making the wood an "oily" wood - except those cure).
I then assumed (progressing up the chain of curing - i.e. non-curing, curing, crosslinking (i.e. poly)) that poly would be just as good or better choice.

I posted my original question in the hopes someone might have a "silve bullet" to fix the problems I encountered. I too suspect the poly (but in reality I can not be absolutely positive). I should have prepared test pieces - as a finisher I used to converse with used to always stress. I guess what I am saying is - I don't want to just realize that I have to strip the old finish and start over (as revolting as it is - appears so), I want to understand the truth of why if failed (if the finisher and his blo/tung oil method works - why it didn't for me - was it really a large enough difference to switch to from his suggested oils to a poly).

Thank you for your previous, and future, input - I greatly appreciate it

12/11/17       #9: problems with shellac over poly... ...
Pat

Like Rich C said, you violated a cardinal rule of finishing by applying a harder finish over a softer one. This rule mostly applies to "film" finishes that are on top of the wood vs. penetrating finishes like tung or BLO. Crazing is exactly what you would expect to see in this situation. You may have luck removing the shellac with just denatured alcohol and some Scotchbrite. It may start out as gummy mess, but a few passes should get you down to the poly. Not sure what your solution is after that.

Good luck!

12/11/17       #10: problems with shellac over poly... ...
DannyB

As the others are getting at, the suggestions that "well known finisher" is making are to use penetrating oils, not film forming ones.

Poly forms a film on top of the wood.
The oils in question soak into the wood and do not leave a film on top.

Oils that form films would be just as bad.

For most situations like this, you can find a set of alternative ways to accomplish your goal that are easier.
You don't need to use either poly or shellac, for example, you could probably just use some dyes to accomplish the same chatoyance depending on the wood.

(and them light amber tint or something in the topcoat to simulate warmth and depth)

12/11/17       #11: problems with shellac over poly... ...
mike Member

Thanks for the replies.
I see my mistake was assuming I could get all the poly of the surface of the wood...Lesson learned, thanks for the info- much appreciated.

12/11/17       #12: problems with shellac over poly... ...
DannyB

BTW, don't ever let it stop you from experimenting and trying stuff.

The only way a lot of know anything is from screwing it up a lot (sometimes on test pieces, sometimes on real ones :P), and hitting on ways that work, and trying to perfect them for our workflow.


Post a Response
  • Notify me of responses to this thread
  • Subscribe to email updates on this Forum
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)