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Color consistency and batch variations from paint vendors

7/13/18       
Redfish

We've dealt with basically every paint vendor in our area, and we do a lot of custom match paint and stain colors (via sending them a physical sample, as well as providing wood substrate to use for spraying/wiping color).

We try to establish long term relationships with these vendors and be good to them regarding expectations, etc.

And invariably, their district-level sales and product specialists oversell their capabilities. They always (always, always) claim that their computer systems are capable of extreme precision. They hardly ever say a word about how they train their people to cater to our needs as a cabinet/millwork manufacturer.

Thus we keep running into two problems.

1) Nobody does a good job matching stains. Yet, when I get their product in my door, I can almost always tweak it a little with my own colorants to get it right. We just simply dont' seem to be able to communicate expectations to them, and they simply don't understand how to get to the final product, no matter how we explain it. They just seem to be stuck in the "well, it's wood, it's not a perfect science" and use that as a wide open excuse for error.

2) Nobody is as good as they should be at color consistency between batches. The "Velvet Blue" I ordered last week may vary enough to be a problem from the "Velvet Blue" I ordered this week.

Basically, I've learned to completely ignore anything they claim about technology and precision and push them on how well they train their technicians.

Anyone else dealing with this? How do you solve these communication and expectation problems?

7/13/18       #2: Color consistency and batch variati ...
rich c.

Their "technicians" are likely throw away people that aren't paid a living wage and have very little understanding of color mixing except for what the computer tells them to do. Highly skilled people are far and few between in the stores of those companies. Big box stores grabbed the highly profitable consumer paint business, so it's now tougher for those corporate stores.

7/13/18       #3: Color consistency and batch variati ...
Mitch Suber Member

Website: http://subercustomshutters.com

We too see high turnover at two of our three main paint/stain suppliers. The 3rd is family owned, and operated by 2nd and 3rd generation family members. This is where I buy my stains, and no mistakes from these guys. In the other two (chain) stores, we make an extra effort to develope friendly relationships, trying to get them to go that extra mile. It does seem to help. We also make double sure they clearly understand what we are asking for, since we often have the customers information to pass on. We give them the base, the series and the formula too. Another helpful tool is using photographs of formulas off of old cans. Thankfully, we keep mistakes to an acceptable level. Around 60% of our work is custom colors. Plus we don’t use the box stores at all.

7/14/18       #4: Color consistency and batch variati ...
CRIS

The solution to this problem is a simple one. SEND IT BACK. The sales rep. sais they can get it perfect. Send it back with a legal definition of perfect taped to the can. When the rep. pays you a visit, and he will explain you're expectations are what he promised you when he sold you on his product.

7/14/18       #5: Color consistency and batch variati ...
afinisher

I'm not sure I understand all the particulars you have to satisfy, but as a general comment matching stain colors is subject to more variables (wood variables, prep, etc) and therefore more problematic to expect you can hand off the responsibility of stain matching to the supply house.

I think most major suppliers now offer stain systems intended for the end user to work with a set of pigment base concentrates and clear base. Sherwood's SB Stain concentrates are one such system. Depending on the scale of your needs, metering equipment is available for the most labor efficient system and precise recording of custom formulas.

As for myself I have a very small operation so I just order the gallons of pigment stain concentrate and clear base and do the metering and mixing on my own. Its a learning curve like anything else but I think control in house is essential here.

Matching opaque paint colors should be something the supplier should be counted on to get right. I have never fully trusted the computerized analysis of an actual painted sample. But it seems to me if your choice is made from a color deck, then the supplier can reference the numbers and know precisely what pigments need to be in the paint and in what concentration.

Sherwood SB Stain Concentrates

7/14/18       #6: Color consistency and batch variati ...
DannyB Member

I do have one supplier who does this right for opaque colors.
They will measure and match both sheen and color perfectly.
Yes, it's computerized, but they verify every result by computer as well and will guarantee the matches are within 0.3 delta points. I've never had them screw it up. It's always as good as what i give them.

As far as i can tell, most of the suppliers only verify the end result by eye/hand, basically none properly match sheen level, etc.

Every other supplier in my area requires hand futzing with results ;(

I also think the computerized matches are given a bad rap due to misuse. They don't take care of the lenses, aren't careful about the light, etc. You can't hand the computer garbage and expect a good result.

Most of the good color measuring systems, used right, are going to be much better than people.

For transparent stains, yeah, they take a piece of what i'm gonna put it on, and can give me a thing that is perfectly the same color as i ask. It's still up to me to adjust it for the rest of the wood. ;)

In any case, this is pretty much the first supplier i've ever had that is this good.

7/15/18       #7: Color consistency and batch variati ...
Jim

Small shop also mainly in remodel. Matching colors via the local suppliers was a hit and miss. No perfect answer but we do use a stain system in house from Chemcraft called the c mix system. It is a system with dyes and premixed stains based on samples and color formulas. It gets you there in some cases but always adjustments to formulas. This is a elementary system in terms of the stain systems because we add no pigments to the stain. I was worried about problems with too much pigments in the formulas and lift on the finish. We will eventually get to the next level of stain matching. My point is we have saved a lot of time and material waste with in house system.

7/16/18       #8: Color consistency and batch variati ...
Redfish

Seems like you are all seeing similar things. OK, at least I know it's not just us, or this area.

I remember several years ago I worked at a rather large educational institution as a crew leader flipping apartments and dorms. We ordered hundreds of gallons of paint per month (wall paint, low sheen) and that particular store did a phenomenal job with consistency.

I just can't get that sort of consistency with conversion varnish and stains. Never really have, either.

7/16/18       #9: Color consistency and batch variati ...
Shane

You will never have a consistent and perfect match farming out your stain matches....This is asking too much from a supplier... temperature, the manner it is applied, the pressure applied to wipe or spray, time the material is on the subtrate before wiping etc etc.... way to many variables... Own your work and hold yourself accountable...... I see it daily here in a large operation. We make our own stains from the Sherwin SB colorants and aurora system to store formulas.... That formula is insanely consistent.. yet different people applicating will have a range of colors once they begin the finishing process initially.... Here's where you divide talent and experience from not so experienced help... My finishers each have a control sample and a set of eyes. They will use the stain in the formula or choose to bring the color in the rest of the way with various dye stains... each guy may use an entirely different set of colors... The end result... Each guys work looks dead on to the control. Proves there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Now.. opaque's?
You do need a reputable supplier that has a good set of valuable employees that care about their work. Personally I happen to have a great product finishes division of Sherwin. My sales rep ,tech rep & facility manager are great people. I send in physical controls when I have them and they match for color and sheen needed.... If I'm matching off a fan deck they shoot towards that and the sheen requested....Only problems I run into are levels of sheen on occasions but this is only in the sample submittal phase.... I order colors by the gallon.... shoot out the samples.. send off for approval or rejection to the customer.... Record the formula# for the paint... if rejected by customer we have them redo the match... simple.... If I know the job is going to take 5-200 gallons I buy enough to do more than half so it can be batched together in their vat as a whole batch.... This way I only have on or two batches for a large job.... they keep a spray out on their end on file for each color.... they can reference that formula and a physical match if another batch is ordered. Problem here is that you need a supplier that cares about their people and their jobs!

7/17/18       #10: Color consistency and batch variati ...
Redfish

I tend to agree with you Shane, I think you pretty much nailed it.

As much as I hate to admit it, stain color consistency is difficult to match.

We aren't at a size that we have room to set up a tint booth, even a 4X4 area would be hard to set up. But perhaps it's something we should look closer at.

Thankfully most of our clients pick stock stain colors I can buy off the shelf from any given number of vendors, but the number of custom matches can get to be really frustrating.

7/31/18       #11: Color consistency and batch variati ...
ColorPro Member

Shane has it right. I use SW Sb stains with, S61's and p63's. it is the best system I have used to date and I have tried em all.

as far as paints...SW is by far the most accurate. and tbh they still mix it by weight. where most companies use a auto pour. tho I have head that SW bought out all of Valspar's, European auto pour systems, and plan to start using em to batch

SW are pretty consistent


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