Furniture Making

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Interior door veneer splitting

3/16/17       
Dan Member

Hi all,

We are having some issues this winter with some hardwood door veneers splitting on site. We lay 1/8" Eastern White Maple over a 32lb particle board core. All my material is sitting @ about 9% moisture in my BC warehouse. We are shipping finished doors to cold dry Alberta with strict handling instructions to ensure they don't dry out to fast. Obviously I can't control what they do on there end much. I had 1 customer measure their moisture @4.5%. Is there anything we can do to avoid these issues in the dead of winter with these 2 different climates? Somehow slowly lower our moisture content. Obviously not shipping for 2 months isn't an option. Glue is not failing as the veneer is actually pulling the core material apart as it shrinks.


View higher quality, full size image (4032 X 3024)

3/16/17       #2: Interior door veneer splitting ...
rich c.

Since it's radiating from the hole in the particle board, I'd say the core of the particle board is wetter than the surface.

3/17/17       #3: Interior door veneer splitting ...
David R Sochar Member

You are making the case for 'locally produced millwork" and not shipping long distances or into areas that vary much from the area the doors were produced.

I saw the subject arise and be dissected at a tooling conference where some white pine 6 panel door guys were having problems with their Oklahoma assembled doors made with rails/stiles from Northern CA and panels from Iowa. They could not understand why they had problems.

You might check to see what 4.5% MC means for EMC and Relative Humidity. I suspect it is not even healthy for humans.

3/17/17       #4: Interior door veneer splitting ...
rich c.

I see you have a panel shrinkage issue as well. I had no idea you could get a home humidity so low the wood got to 4.5% The occupants must have skin cracking and falling off!

3/20/17       #5: Interior door veneer splitting ...
Tom Gardiner

What if you were to reduce the thickness of the maple and add a cross-band veneer. Sorry if I sound like an idiot if this can't be practicality done for production.
Are all the failures around hardware holes? Would packing hardware holes with a moisture resisting stuff (?) help slow the localized moisture loss?

4/6/17       #6: Interior door veneer splitting ...
JR Rutter

I had to fly to Alaska a few years ago because a cabinet door package that we made in WA state ended up in the ultra-low (unconditioned) indoor humidity of AK in December/January. I took along a few select pages of "Understanding Wood" and a humidity gauge to show them why the doors were shrinking and splitting. We ended up replacing about 1/3 of the doors at no cost with the understanding that a humidification unit would be added to their central heat. Originally, we had no idea where this job was shipping, since we only do the doors. I kept our solid cabinet shop relationship intact, but said no warranty ever on any job going to unconditioned space.

5/23/17       #8: Interior door veneer splitting ...
John Member

Is your maple plain sawn? If so, go to quarter sawn as it has half the seasonal movement of plain sawn. I don't know what the seasonal movement is for particle board, but MDF is around 3%. Sugar maple shrinks 9.9% for plain sawn and 4.8% for QS from green to oven dry. Of course, you aren't starting with green wood, but it's clear QS is the way to go. If you already are using QS then something is really strange. What glue are you using between the veneer and core?

John

5/23/17       #9: Interior door veneer splitting ...
John Member

There appears to be some confusion about what I meant by MDF having a 3% shrinkage. You have to use that value with the formula in Hoadley's book "Understanding Wood", page 140 in my edition. If your door stile was 5" wide and the moisture content in it changed from 8% to 4.5% MDF would shrink:

5 x 0.03 (which is 3%) x (0.08 - 0.045/0.28) = 0.0188"

Plain sawn hard maple with a shrinkage of 9.9% would shrink 0.062", which is 0.043" more than the core. If you used QS hard maple, the difference would only be 0.011"

As I said before, I don't know what the shrinkage/expansion of particle board is, but if it's similar to MDF it could explain the problem the OP is having if he is using plain sawn hard maple with a very rigid glue.

John


Post a Response
  • Notify me of responses to this thread
  • Subscribe to email updates on this Forum
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)