Sawing and Drying

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

why is my butternut sapwood really hard & dark

5/26/16       
Jason Pollock Member

This limb I have cut into out of a walnut tree in my yard ,I assume is butternut, I can't find a description of wood that matches it the heartwood is soft like balsa but the sap wood is really hard and dark. Is this common?


View higher quality, full size image (3256 X 1836)


View higher quality, full size image (3264 X 1840)


View higher quality, full size image (3264 X 1840)

5/26/16       #2: why is my butternut sapwood really ...
farwode

That is some very attractive firewood you have there.

5/26/16       #3: why is my butternut sapwood really ...
TennesseeTim

Website: http://tsmfarms.com

Firewood????? LOL!!! People pay premium for spalting like that!!!

Butternut I'm not sure of BUT the light soft wood is due to the heart is in the 3rd stage of spalting....which is beginning of rot. With the pics it appears the tree was dying from center out (how most hollow trees start). You actually caught it at the correct stage and able to get a few beautiful boards. I let woo/logs lay around for years to achieve what you accidently gained. The dark wood does appear to be walnut/ butternut. BEAUTIFUL!!!!
Check out my website under sub title "New and Hot off the Mill" @ www.tsmfarms.com

5/26/16       #4: why is my butternut sapwood really ...
rich c.

Hold on, are you joking? Can't tell from the way you type. But you are asking if you can get butternut out of a walnut tree? It's rotten in the center of a walnut branch, that's all. Hope I'm just not playing along with the joke, or even worse, now I will be the joke.

5/26/16       #5: why is my butternut sapwood really ...
TennesseeTim

Website: http://tsmfarms.com

I guess the joke is on you since you spoke it. Yes butternut is a form of walnut...some call it light walnut. I've seen dk walnut be light in color and one of the butternuts I sawed was a darker color and if I hadn't cut the tree standing seeing he bark and tree as a whole I would've guessed it as walnut. I'm sure the trained eye that handles it everyday can see the difference immediately as with pecan and hickory are usually graded together also chestnut oak and white oak...they look similar but have nothing in common in rot resistance (chestnut oak is open cell).

Rot....your correct....that's what true spalt is at 3rd stage....the black lines are a battle of ??? and ??? in the second stage.... the late end of third stage (if allowed to go that far) is rot of none usable. Spalting is stopped at which ever stage it's at once dry and won't go any further.
I hope that info helps you.

5/26/16       #6: why is my butternut sapwood really ...
TennesseeTim

Website: http://tsmfarms.com

Error....I meant it's also called white walnut.

5/27/16       #7: why is my butternut sapwood really ...
woody fire

Given how small the pieces are, plus the extensive rot, it's minimally acceptable as firewood.

I would toss it in the burn pile and look for some non-rotten wood to spend my energy on.

5/27/16       #8: why is my butternut sapwood really ...
Gene2Wengert-WoodDoc

When wood is first harvested, the sapwood contains many sugars. These sugars are attractive to various fungi, that are grey or blue in color. The heartwood does not have food for them so they avoid the heartwood. These fungi invade the wood in a few days to weeks.

However, other fungi do like the heartwood as these fungi are eating the basic components of wood...the lignin, which is the stiffener and glue that holds the cells together. These fungi prefer dead trees and take months to develop, so during that time, the sapwood is drying and Getting "hard" while the heartwood is beginning to soften and is still quite wet.

5/27/16       #9: why is my butternut sapwood really ...
TennesseeTim

Website: http://tsmfarms.com

This is a google search on spalted butternut for the one(s) who say it's firewood. Jason, I can't tell the sizes you have but there's a few tables or if smaller there's a few beautiful jewelry boxes. Spalting is a specialty wood and a lot of people have no idea how to build or use it so they say "throw it in the fire". It does require more time but the rewards are worth it.

Search - Spalted Butternut

5/27/16       #10: why is my butternut sapwood really ...
woody fire

You assume much when you attempt to refute a comment I made, one which is based on decades of experience.

I know that you think that wood has value, but the line between spalted and rotten, once crossed, has rendered the wood useless.

Or, better yet, just try to sell it and see how the market responds - that is a sometimes useful gauge on just what raw/rotten materials are worth.

I produce a lot of products from spalted wood and was merely trying to save someone from investing time and effort in wood that is, at this point, merely a diminishing source of BTUs.

Have at it - it's your life and time, but if the end product turns out to be a piece of rotten garbage, well, what can I say?

5/27/16       #11: why is my butternut sapwood really ...
Jason Pollock Member

This piece is just part of a branch that fell off in a storm I have more of it that would be larger and better quality, the worm holes and rot could probably be similar to knotty pine in cases where I have glued the two pieces together the centre third where white is also hard and free from decay so two thirds of the other wood I have is good either way, But why is the sapwood so hard is this normal other wood has soft weaker sap wood this is the reason I can't find a description to identify it properly .
The pieces I have I am going to cut two pieces into the ends of the board so the sapwood is a frame and the soft heart wood will be carved to hold rings in place ,maybe a little flocking.

5/29/16       #12: why is my butternut sapwood really ...
Gene2Wengert-WoodDoc

The heartwood is soft due to decay. The sapwood appears hard because it is dry. Further, we do know that not all basswood is soft. A wood carver can tell you, from experience, that some basswood is quite hard and difficult to cut. So, not all basswood is the same.

5/29/16       #13: why is my butternut sapwood really ...
Tennessee Tim  Member

Website: http://www.tsmfarms.com

Did I miss something Gene....Basswood ??? or did you mean butternut which is considered soft but sometimes hard???
Thanks

5/29/16       #14: why is my butternut sapwood really ...
Gene Wengert-WoodDoc

Indeed, I did mean butternut. It is true for basswood too.

5/31/16       #15: why is my butternut sapwood really ...
Jason Pollock Member

We have had a change in weather here in Australia and the other small boards I have cut seem to have adjusted an the difference between the sap wood and heart wood seems to have evened out there is less rot in these boards it's a really nice texture ,although the sap wood does still seem harder than the heart wood o have assumed it is just from the spalting then I wonder if the dense woods I have would have done the same for eg. The gidgee lengths I have which have a white layer of sapwood over the dark marbled and ringed heartwood which is incredible hard the sap wood would then become harder then the wood is ATM it could be nearly then considered stone. I would love to cut some of this.

5/31/16       #16: why is my butternut sapwood really ...
Jackson Pollack

What?

5/31/16       #17: why is my butternut sapwood really ...
Gene Wengert-WoodDoc

We know that sapwood cells die almost immediately after they are formed. We know that heartwood cells were sapwood cells earlier in their life. We know that wood is basically made of two chemicals...cellulose which is cotton and lignin which is the glue and stiffener. The amount of these chemicals in a cell does not change unless we remove part of the cell wall by insects or decay or chemical dissolving. We know we cannot strengthen wood except through drying and by adding a chemical into the cell or cell wall. For softwoods, we know that slower growth rate is slightly stronger. For most hardwoods, rate does not affect density or strength. The exception is ring porous, like oak and ash, where slower growth is weaker.


Post a Response
  • Notify me of responses to this thread
  • Subscribe to email updates on this Forum
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)