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Machining brass and wood

11/29/17       
David Waldmann Member

Website: vermonthardwoods.com

Yes, I know this is a woodworking forum...

We are working on a project where there will be a 1/16" thick piece of brass laminated to the surface of walnut, and then the edges trimmed flush. Then the pieces will need to be mitered to make a frame.

It's for mirror frames, and there are two sizes - approx 3' x 4' and 4' x 6'.

We are going to be making just 4 prototypes initially, and then if all goes well, as many as 270 total.

I've asked our normal tooling supplier for advice and they don't seem to know anything. I know you CAN cut thin brass like this with woodworking tools, but am looking for any tips, suggestions, warnings, etc.

We will be initially milling the wood in our moulder, at about 1/16" oversize in each direction where the brass will be (which will also be about 1/16" oversize). I would then plan to do the flush trimming on our shaper. It has a 1-1/4" spindle and adjustable speeds from 2900-10000 RPM. Suggestions for cutter diameter, material, RPM and feed speed?

I did also consider using a dado blade on the table saw to trim the bottom edge, by running the moulding through standing up (we do have power feeds on both the table saw and shaper)

For mitering, we can use our table saw with sliding table, again with multiple speeds but I don't recall off hand what they are right now. We also have plenty of contractor type chop saws but I have not been impressed with them for finish work. However, we do have a hand crank miter sander and I have considered using a chop saw and then finishing with the sander. It's a pretty precision tool, designed for the picture framing trade with micro-adjustments for angle. Again, any suggestions for blades, re size, grind, tooth composition, etc?

Lastly, the brass is supposed to have a "satin linear finish" which the original artist has done in the past with a sanding block and 180-220 grit paper. Hopefully we will be able to do this in our Delle Vedove profile sander, either with a sanding belt or abrasive wheel. Any suggestions for sanding belt abrasive and backing? What about wheel type etc?


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11/29/17       #2: Machining brass and wood ...
David R Sochar Member

You have a lot of questions.....

I have some suggestions.

I think carbide can machinated wood and brass easily enough. Try a few feed speeds and RPMs to see what works well. Plan on changing the carbide inserts often at the cutting edges. That lower edge of brass at the glass rabbet will slice like a razor after milling, so that will need some attention - abrasive? The upper edge will not cut as badly, but sanding may be the way to address these edges after sizing on the shaper. A hard back abrasive platen will not over sand and raise the metal in reference to the wood if done properly. You can probably do what you need to do with a wide belt and a few fixtures. Make it so the material travels thru the wide belt at an angle to avoid wearing a groove in the belt - use the width of the machine.

What glue do you propose using? Curiosity only.

11/29/17       #3: Machining brass and wood ...
David Waldmann Member

Website: vermonthardwoods.com

Wow, quick response - thanks!

Our profile sander has several options for platens, and all the heads are adjustable for angle, pressure, belt speed, etc.

This artist works primarily with walnut and brass, and uses the West System epoxy as it apparently works well for him, which is our initial plan. I am certainly open to other suggestions - I don't relish the idea of making thousands of LF of this stuff with epoxy, but if that's what it takes...

The initial four frames are being billed on T&M with a cap, and then a firm quote for the full order will be presented. Any ideas to speed up the process, make it less messy or better in any way will be gratefully considered.


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11/29/17       #4: Machining brass and wood ...
David Waldmann Member

Website: vermonthardwoods.com

BTW, the belts on the DV can also be set up to have a pretty large range of oscillation as well, and if they do start wearing we can just raise or lower the head a bit to get to fresh paper.

11/29/17       #5: Machining brass and wood ...
Mark Elliott Member

David,

The thing I would be concerned about with sanding the brass is the heat that is going to generated.

When any metal is sanded to put a finish on it the sanders are set up with coolants running on the metal.

If sanding is going to work without coolant I think the only chance you have will be with a flap wheel.

This is just my take on it, maybe someone else can chime in.

Mark

11/29/17       #6: Machining brass and wood ...
David Waldmann Member

Website: vermonthardwoods.com

Yes, heat was mentioned as a concern, from both a discoloration concern as well as flammability - apparently this epoxy has a relatively low flashpoint.

But our profile sander is extremely flexible in its programming. I don't know for sure, but am pretty confident it can slow belt speed down to almost 0, and the pressure is controlled by regulated air, so that can be almost 0 as well. I have a hard time imagining we couldn't replicate hand block-sanding. The belts are pretty long (over 100" IIRC) which should allow heat dissipation, especially in combination with air blowing on them which is another feature/option.

However, a flap wheel is another possibility that I'm very open to consider if necessary. We have a total of 3 belt stations and 4 spindle/wheel stations on our machine.

11/30/17       #7: Machining brass and wood ...
Paul Miller

Website: http://MCCWOODWORKING.COM

1/16" thick seems like over kill. I would think 18 or 20 gauge would serve just as well.

I would check around to see if there is someone that has a laser cutter that could cut the brass pieces. Their cuts will be perfect and the yield will be much better than any thing you might get cutting in a normal shop. If not a laser, you could get good cuts with a plasma cutter, but your edges would not be as good, you would have to clean up the edges.

Also, I would not over size these, I would cut them to fit.

11/30/17       #8: Machining brass and wood ...
David Waldmann Member

Website: vermonthardwoods.com

I believe that the 1/16" is a design feature. That's what they want it to look like - 1/8" walnut, 1/16" brass on the face.

Are you suggesting that the wood part of the frame be made complete (possibly even joined) and then the brass applied? If so, that's an interesting thought. Seems like getting it exactly the right size, and then keeping it in alignment during glue setup could be very tricky.

OTOH, I can see trimming flush could be a bit tricky as well, mostly due to the straightness of the pieces. However, the pieces will NEED to be pretty straight because of the size of them, and I would plan on using an outside fence when trimming the top to ensure the "width" (height) is consistent, and a continuous inside/conventional fence for trimming the bottom of the lip.

Going to be a learning experience for sure!

11/30/17       #9: Machining brass and wood ...
Paul Miller

Website: http://MCCWOODWORKING.COM

Looking at the profile, I think I would assemble the frame and then apply the brass trim. I have mortise and tennon machines so I would probably see if I could bring my frames together this way. Tapering away may present a challenge.

As for the 1/16th thickness being in the design, I have rarely had an issue getting an approval for a change like that. Brass is exspensive. Lining up the corners is not going to be easy and you may have to do some sanding before you apply the brass as for the glue, I would use contact adhesive, protecting the areas where I did not want glue.

This must be for a hotel.

11/30/17       #10: Machining brass and wood ...
David Waldmann Member

Website: vermonthardwoods.com

We are planning to join the frames using the Hoffmann dovetail system, as we already have two of their machines for the picture framing part of our business. We have been very happy with it - it's easy, provides tight joints and is pretty strong. (there will also be a "strainer" frame behind the glass, made of 3/4 x 4 basswood with 4 crossbars, which will be attached to the frame with pocket hole screws).

One issue I am envisioning with adding the brass after the frame is assembled is the "satin linear finish". If it could somehow be done before application it might be ok, but I'd be concerned about maintaining the integrity of the finish during the lamination process. It would be almost impossible to do it afterwards and have any kind of consistency.

I think we will be stuck doing the 1/16" for the prototypes, I believe the brass is already ordered (it's being supplied by someone else that's involved). But after seeing how it goes and establishing a cost for the remainder of the project they may be amenable to alternatives to keep the cost in line.

I think it's for a hotel, although I'm not sure anyone specifically told me that.

12/1/17       #11: Machining brass and wood ...
Paul Miller

Website: http://MCCWOODWORKING.COM

I am not familiar with the Hoffmann dovetail machine. If you can make the mitered joints line up exactly, it would seem putting the brass on first would be the way to go.

I'm not familiar with "Satin linear finish." Can you explain that?

12/1/17       #12: Machining brass and wood ...
David Waldmann Member

Website: vermonthardwoods.com

I don't have any worries about lining up the miters. That is our bread and butter.

The "satin linear finish" (which I have not seen in person yet) is achieved by sanding linearally (is that a word?) with 180-220 grit paper. Or, at least, that's how it's been done before.

Hoffmann dovetail machine

12/1/17       #13: Machining brass and wood ...
Paul Miller

Website: http://MCCWOODWORKING.COM

We once had a job where we put sanding lines on stainless steel. We sent the steel sheets through our wide belt sander. We were sure to turn off the dust collector because of sparks which would start a fire in our dust collection lines. We had to turn off the oscillating of the belt so that we did not get tracking. I don't know how we did that, but it came out looking good.

That is an awesome looking edge profiler/sander in your picture. We have an older, mid 90's small but very useful. What is the make?

You will figure out the best way to do this job. That is really the fun part.

12/1/17       #14: Machining brass and wood ...
David Waldmann Member

Website: vermonthardwoods.com

Our waste goes to a pellet plant, so we will not be able to use dust collection for any of the parts where brass is being sanded/milled.

The profile sander is a Delle Vedove. It's got just about every bell and whistle you can imagine on it. Really overkill for our everyday needs, but it was a showroom demo so we got it for about 55% of the cost of a new one.

We had a cheap Chinese one for about 10 years - it did pretty much the same job but setup was horrendous and parts support was nonexistent. Believe it or not, when we took it out of service I couldn't find a single person the slightest bit interested in it and I ended up selling it for scrap...

12/1/17       #15: Machining brass and wood ...
Pete D

David,

I do a lot of stainless steel work in the furniture I build and it’s all finished with a #4 polish also known as a satin finish which is basically the same linear finish you’re talking about. Because most of my work is welded first I have to grind then blend the welds to match the factory finish using hand tools. The linear grinder I use has a variety of different abrasive wheels from flap discs to non woven (scotchbrite) wheels that achieve the satin finish. Many companies make these linear grinders like 3m, metabo, fein, dynabrade, walter and others and they cost between $500-1000. The issue you might find is you have to be very careful that the tool is moving north south or any errant movement can be detected in the finish pattern.

Fein makes a larger horizontal 3” and 6” wide belt grinder that mounts to a base and has an attachment/feeder that mounts above the belt and is used for linear grinding/finishing. Belts are available in traditional aluminum oxide grits or non woven material and the machines run around 5-6k but are much faster and provide a more consistent scratch than any handheld options. There’s more machinery similar to very small widebelt sanders that are made for metal finishing but cost a bit more.

I would also talk to a metal supplier and see what options they can provide. Sometimes tubing sizes I need aren’t in stock in a #4 polish so they have a shop polish/grain the tubes from mill finish stock.

12/1/17       #16: Machining brass and wood ...
David Waldmann Member

Website: vermonthardwoods.com

Pete,

Thanks for the info on using a wheel. I'd prefer that route if possible as it seems a lot less likely to cause problems.

Our DV sander has 4 wheel stations on it, so we could even use two different heads if need be. They are all independently controlled as to speed, rotation and how much (if any) compensation for wear. And of course feed speed is variable as well.

Would you say that the #4 polish would be similar to the effect of sanding with 180-220 grit on a platen?

We currently use Discotelsisal wheels. I'll call our supplier and see what they have to recommend.

12/1/17       #17: Machining brass and wood ...
Pete D

Yes, a #4 polish can range from 150-220 although I’ve dealt with quite a range from different suppliers. Sometimes I’ve received finished tubes that were clearly done with a coarser grit and delivered as #4, which makes blending/matching grain much more difficult. There’s many different levels of polish going up to a #8 which is a flawless mirror finish. I believe the finest satin polish is a #6 ~240grit.

No question your machine is a great option, I would definitely contact your supplier and see what they recommend. As a disclaimer, I don’t work with brass so I can’t say for sure what is recommended. Stainless is a different animal...very hard and sensitive to heat input. I prefer the non woven abrasive wheels to apply my finishing scratch. That or an interleaf wheel which has non woven material sandwiched between a flap of aluminum oxide. I find these tend to run cooler and load less.

The feed speed and wheel speed can have a slight effect on the finish using the same grit. Considering how much variability and control you have with your machine I’m sure you’ll be able to dial it in after a couple test runs.

12/2/17       #18: Machining brass and wood ...
Jason Holtz  Member

Website: jholtz.com

I have a customer that I do some limited production work for, its almost all walnut and brass. The brass plays more of an accent role here, but I'm starting with 1/4" bar stock. I have to machine a bevel on it, which I cut on the table saw. I have found I can only do this in lengths of 8" or the heat generated warps the material too much. Once I bevel then I have to cut 3/4" lengths of it. It is quite tedious. Then I glue the brass pieces into the corresponding 1/4" angled dado using just CA glue. I used epoxy for a while but it was too messy and too slow. I imagine this will be a huge issue for you, as West System takes forever to cure.

Lastly, once the walnut and brass pieces are all glued in I run it through the wide belt with 120 grit. This gives a good satin polish pattern, but I hit it with 150 on a block by hand afterwards.


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12/2/17       #19: Machining brass and wood ...
David Waldmann Member

Website: vermonthardwoods.com

I would love to use something other than epoxy. How much working time do you have with CA? We will be laminating a 2" wide x 6' long piece. Will there be time enough to apply that much glue, place and clamp it before it sets up? Where do you get CA glue in the quantities needed for such a project?

The cure time of the West System is a huge challenge. If we get the large order of 270 frames - that's over 1000 individual sticks 3-6' long! I can see it taking months, simply because of the number of clamping jigs.

I've also considered vacuum bags - I have never used them but it seems a possibility. The advantage I can see is even clamping pressure, which will be very important on the thin brass to ensure a tight joint.

12/10/17       #20: Machining brass and wood ...
Geoff

David,
I have done several projects gluing copper, stainless steel and galvanized steel to mdf. The adhesive I used was spray on contact adhesive. I am not sure if that is what you and the last poster are talking about when you say, "CA".

Anyway, I treat the metal like plastic laminate and it works. Also, just like plastic laminate, once both surfaces touch you are committed. You can not get them apart.

As with most things there are down sides and I would say that the over spray is the biggest hassle.

I think it would be worth a short test run. As you probably know, you can buy the adhesive in spay paint size cans for small jobs.

12/10/17       #21: Machining brass and wood ...
rich c.

Geoff, CA is cyanoacrylate (super glue)

12/11/17       #22: Machining brass and wood ...
David Waldmann Member

Website: vermonthardwoods.com

Thanks Geoff, I had put contact adhesive on the "must try" list as well. Glad to hear it's a viable option.

I was actually thinking of applying it with a roller, which would eliminate the overspray issue. Any caveats to that?

12/11/17       #23: Machining brass and wood ...
Geoff

David,
I have not used liquid contact adhesive for a long time so I shouldn't comment. Goes without saying, it would be easy to test both.
Geoff

12/11/17       #24: Machining brass and wood ...
Paul Miller

Website: http://MCCWOODWORKING.COM

I have used contact adhesive on steel, usually gluing to plywood. I have not had a problem. I use flammable adhesive and we spray it on. You will find rolling the adhesive on is more difficult. The metal is smooth and the roller will slide. If over spray is a problem, we just mask it off. I do not know about brass, but we always clean off the steel with lacquer thinner. Steel has an oil film or dust. I have never had a failure, just being cautious.

12/11/17       #25: Machining brass and wood ...
Geoff

David,
It crossed my mind that contact adhesive is temperature sensitive. For example, a crock pot on a formica counter top can delaminate from the heat. My thought is, that milling, or sanding could generate heat and cause problems.

12/12/17       #26: Machining brass and wood ...
David Waldmann Member

Website: vermonthardwoods.com

Good thought Geoff. We will be on the lookout for that and maybe do some testing under more extreme conditions than expected in production.

Thanks all for the ideas.

3/7/18       #27: Machining brass and wood ...
David Waldmann Member

Website: vermonthardwoods.com

We finally got the brass this week.

One of the concerns we came up with is preserving the integrity of the "finish" (so-called Linear Satin Finish) before packaging. We will be mitering and routing for the Hoffmann dovetails after polishing and before packaging, so a fair amount of handling (I can't remember if I already mentioned it, but the pieces won't be coated with finish until after they leave our shop).

One of the guys came up with the idea of the "sticky" plastic wrap that you often see on TVs, refrigerators, etc. I have no idea where to source something like that - any ideas?

6/6/18       #28: Machining brass and wood ...
David Waldmann Member

Website: vermonthardwoods.com

Thought I would give an update in case anyone else tries to do similar.

We ended up using the West System G/5 epoxy. It's a very quick setting one (5 minutes), which has advantages and disadvantages of course. The main thing we were looking for was quick turnaround, as facing 1000+ pieces with a one-day set time was simply not feasible. It would be great if we had 15-20 minutes so we could get more pieces laminated per session, but this wasn't too bad. We did either (1) 6' rail, or (2) of the 3'-4'6" rails at a time. Foam roller covers (I bought standard 9" ones and cut them into 5 pieces each on the bandsaw) worked great at spreading the epoxy quickly and evenly.

I found the blue sticky "glass protective film" at U-Line. I ended up also using it in the clamping jig to prevent squeeze-out from bonding the moulding to the jig. Worked great! We also applied it to the brass after polishing. It remains to be seen how it works more long term at protecting the brass from tarnishing, as it's very hard to make it perfectly flat on the surface all along.

I did both hot and cold tests of the epoxy and it held up well. The most heat was generated from the polishing process, but it only got about lukewarm except once or twice when a piece got stuck, in which case it got "good and warm" but not too hot to touch.

I used the table saw to do the trimming. If we get the big order we will use the shaper to trim the top, as the saw marks took a lot more to get out with the sander than I anticipated.

Overall I am very happy with how the project went and hope we get the big job.


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11/8/20       #29: Machining brass and wood ...
FORSUN CNC Member

Website: http://forsuncnc.com/

When working with non-ferrous metals like brass and Aluminum and, you need a CNC machine that can handle more cut forces. CNC routers for Aluminum&Brass are built to deliver the cut forces needed to create excellent products.

Aluminum and Brass Machining


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