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Caulking Panels in Entry Doors

10/24/14       
Chad

Over the past 8 years we have had two entry doors that have leaked water through the bottom panels on our entry doors due to a driving rain. We have not had this happen in the past and are having a difficult time trouble shooting how to prevent it.

One of our solutions is to start caulking the panels in. We put a bead of caulk on the back side of the panel sticking and drop our panel in & push down for squeeze out. Attach our panel stops, and after it dries we cut the caulk out.

One of my long-term employees does not like this process because he believes that the panel cannot move - expand or contract in a bead of caulk. Our other thoughts are - we believe since it is latex caulk it should be flexible enough to allow the panel to move.

Can you offer any thoughts and other ideas to prevent water getting through the panels? Do other people caulk in the panels for entry doors?

10/24/14       #2: Caulking Panels in Entry Doors ...
David R Sochar Member

Website: http://www.acornwoodworks.com

There was a pretty good discussion on this subject in August.

As for the caulk allowing movement question, time to make some test panels and stress them.

WoodWeb thread on panel leakage

10/24/14       #3: Caulking Panels in Entry Doors ...
Steve Member

Have you considered a product such as Sherwin Williams Elastromeric Urethane caulking that advertises +/- 35% flexibility in movement? See link below -

Link

10/24/14       #4: Caulking Panels in Entry Doors ...
Chad

Thanks Dave for forwarding the Thread - looks like he experienced the same thing we did. I decided to finally ask this question on woodweb because it always comes up when laying up a door. Do we caulk in the panels or not. From the thread it looks like other door makers are asking the same thing.

I think we are leaning towards always putting some latex caulk around the panel. The caulk is a mess to clean up but it does give us more piece of mind.

I will look into the Sherwin Williams product.

10/24/14       #5: Caulking Panels in Entry Doors ...
David R Sochar Member

We typically just make a plow and raise the panels to fit, so there are no loose stops to fiddle with. We make the fit tight - very tight - with panel cutters that we have made to our specs. I have not had a panel leak complaint in about 12 years. Knock, knock.

Years ago we used to run a heavy bead of caulk around in the plow bottoms at assembly, but we were never sure what it did, if anything.

Today, if we have to stop a panel in, we set the exterior stops tight with glue and clamp, then set the panels, then caulk that gap plus just a hair thick so when the panel stops go in, they mash some caulk and help complete the seal. It is real important to lean on those stops and pin them really tight - this is your first defense, in my opinion. Cleaning caulk is not my idea of productive work, so we do not plan to do so.

Some Euro and American work will actually have a small rebate at the wood/panel joint for a thin bead of caulk to be applied after assembly. Pretty tricky stuff in my opinion.

10/24/14       #6: Caulking Panels in Entry Doors ...
Joe Calhoon

We have used the Euro method David mentioned for a while now. Basically treating the panels like IGU.
The pictures and drawings should be self explanatory.

Tooled wet glazing is a skill and time consuming on multi panels, SDLs and TDLs. My shop associate is good at it. Myself, not so good. European woodworkers are fast at this.

For the panels we are using Dow 794. We have found Soudal products we like better for glass and looking at color choices in this product for the panels.

I have a bad exposure entry on my own house. We installed a new door built with this technique. So far it has gone through several driving rains with no leaks.

Another thing that helps is tooling designed with drain channels from the inside. We have gone away from captured panels. With the Euro water base finish everything is dipped on the first coat and all parts must be finished both sides and all edges. Especially the panels.
Joe


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10/24/14       #7: Caulking Panels in Entry Doors ...
Joe Calhoon

Here are a couple drawings similar to what we do.


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10/25/14       #8: Caulking Panels in Entry Doors ...
Geoff

I have a couple questions for, Joe. One, what are you using for a spacer between molding and panel (I was thinking 3/8" x 1/16" dbl sided foam tape). Two, If you profile the drain channels in the edge of the stiles and rails how does the water get out. Wouldn't it have to run down between the bottom rails end and the stile. In addition how do you get the water around your joinery and door shoe/sweep

Thanks for sharing your methods. It is going to help me build a better door.

10/27/14       #9: Caulking Panels in Entry Doors ...
Joe Calhoon

Geoff,
Yes we use glazing tape usually 1/16 or 1/8”. The caulk joint has to be minimum 3.5 to 4mm to get good adhesion. This whole subject is pretty involved for forum discussion and a few different ways to go about it. In Europe the tool mfgs. work with the IG producers to come up with the best technique for IG installation.

Attached is a picture of the top of my front door to show the drain hole in front of the gasket. This one has a special thermally broken water return threshold with 3 sealing gaskets on the door bottom. I normally prefer to make my own low-tech copper or metal clad wood thresholds but this one works well for bad exposures. I will try and dig up a section drawing for it. This is a Euro rebated door but we have made this work on North American style doors also.

You can also do the drain holes the old fashioned way with a 8mm or so drill hole. These are not intended to drain a lot of water. They are located in the “cold area” of the glass or panel pocket to get rid of condensation or small amounts of water seeping through the seals. Also to relieve pressure that might build up from temperature changes. Another purpose is to drain the impregnator during the dipping coat of the water base finish. See short Utube for a explanation of the slots.
Joe


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Drain slots

10/27/14       #10: Caulking Panels in Entry Doors ...
Geoff

Joe,
The saying is, a picture is worth a thousand words. I think a video is worth a million. Thank you for sharing your time and knowledge.

10/30/14       #11: Caulking Panels in Entry Doors ...
Will Williamson  Member

Website: http://www.willmade.com

Where can a person study this euro method of making doors and windows? Without going to Europe.

10/31/14       #12: Caulking Panels in Entry Doors ...
Joe Doherty

You can go to the Alpine Techinical Workshop in Ouray, CO.

Joe Calhoon is yhe instructor and time spent with him and Greg Godbout is worth every penny. Joe in New Orleans

Alpine Technical Workshop

11/13/14       #13: Caulking Panels in Entry Doors ...
Sherwood Botsford Member

Seems to me that there has been an earlier design failure: Why is rain hitting the door? The traditional ways are storm doors, recessed entry ways, and roofed porches.

You are working with wood, a material that changes shape with changing moisture. Either keep it dry, or study how wooden boats are made.

11/13/14       #14: Caulking Panels in Entry Doors ...
Joe Calhoon

This is true. The old guys had protection of wooden entrys figured out.

Unfortunately if you are in the wooden door and window business a certain percentage of your work will be bad exposure due to poor design and minimal roof overhangs. It is also not uncommon to see homeowners take a hose to wash dust off doors.

Windows and sliding systems bring up more problems yet.

Joe


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