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I am reflecting this morning after we have been policed again on our speech here at Woodweb. While I am saddened by the fact that it is done, it is certainly their right being their own site. However, I think it shoots them in the foot.
I know I for one find the vast majority of the content to be completely repetitious and only a small sliver that does not get erased to be of much value to me, or in helping others which I am glad to do.
The content that is constantly erased is what draws me in. People that I have learned to respect over the years: Pat, KAP, DS and many who I disagree with in politics like D Sochar, cabmaker, P Downs but respect as men and operators of their craft & business & so many others on both sides.
It is easy to go find a website to discuss today's issues but hard to find a place where your knowledge of a person's business gives you a chance to weigh the way they come at the issues at hand. In essence it is hard to find a place where the people you disagree with have credibility because you can see how they approach dozens of other concrete day in and out issues related to their shop that you also face. You can judge their competence, judgement, outlook, risk appetite and morals by doing the math on them in such a way.
For me it is a great loss to those who use Woodweb, Woodweb itself as I know they loose hundreds of my clicks a week by moderating the way they do and the advertisers of Woodweb because of the eyeballs they lose.
If anything recent events have taught us it is we Americans do not like to be censored. We want the facts- messy or not- and let us sort them out as adults with reason. I don't mind be offended or disagreeing with someone especially when they are the class acts you will usually find on Woodweb. And the few times one of us slips up I am willing to grant them to grace to vent as such and overlook it. I for one am spending more and more time in venues, both physically and digitally, where freedom of thoughts and idea and freedom in general is promoted. And less and less where that is not the case.
That is the case I am making. Let them know where you stand. Thank you for reading.
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Out of curiosity I looked through the forum guidelines and found this rule:
"Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed."
Don't know if that specifically applies to responses to questions or if starting a thread of a political nature is off limits.
While I have no interest in discussing politics on this site, I don't have a problem with it if that's what other members are keen on, easy enough to skip over the posts that don't interest me. However, I think it's disrespectful to any OP that posts for others to take over a thread and turn it into a political debate. If a topic comes up you want to address in a political nature I think the respectable way to handle it is to start a new thread.
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Pete, I respect that. What do you think when the question progresses that way in stages? Do you start a new thread?
I thought the one that prompted this was a pretty natural progression- from horrible to work ethic stories, to praise for Hispanics & immigrants work ethic (which is strangely still up, hmm...), to questioning the validity of that and discussing what causes bad work ethic.
I have been guilty of hijacking a thread or at least helping in that cause and I want to respect the OP but I'm not always clear when it is pretty natural like the one mentioned. There are times where I think it's a no brainer and if given the latitude of the moderators could start a new thread. My thought is we generally do not because we want to get our thoughts in before they get zapped and would not be given that lattitude.
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 Member |
That's a fair point...I don't think it's always cut and dry when the balance of a thread can tilt into a political realm. I've noticed in some cases comments are removed, other times they're left alone.
The reasoning behind my comment is that the OP gets notified of additional comments every time someone posts and who knows, maybe they appreciate the candid discussions that evolve and the frequent "additional content added" email notifications even if they diverge from the intial post, maybe not. To my knowledge, the OP can't "unsubscribe" to their own thread once it's initially posted. That's why I think it's best to start a new one if there's any doubt.
The metal working forum I frequent has plenty of candid political discussions with participants all over the world. There's also a specific area in the forum where they originate and it's usually very clear in the subject line of any new post.
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All notifications from a thread come with this:
To CANCEL future notifications for this thread, use this link:
http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/cancel_notify.pl?e=moc.skrowdoownitsut,tap&a
mp;id=806258&f=business
The thread always evolve as one comment/idea leads to another, which is where useful information comes from.
It is analogous to when you go to a trade show and guys talk candidly during breaks. Often this is the most valuable information you will get at the show.
These comments are valuable, especially if you disagree with them.
Culture comes up inevitably when discussing the labor pool. Labor is 25% to 70% of your business, perhaps the most important topic you will discuss.
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Member |
Wasn't aware of the link, in that case clearly my comments about being disrespectful to any OP aren't accurate as they can opt out at any time.
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FamilyMan,
Far be it from me to hijack someone else's thread but since you brought immigrants up.......
The economy has been on fire in cabinet land for the last couple of years. My own shop is as busy as we ever were during the dot com days. All across this country businesses are struggling to find workers that have the skills, aptitude or attitude to be successful. Much as our president might want us to believe we are heading to hell in a handbasket this economy is roaring for anyone who wants to have a job. You might have to get up and move to make it happen but that's the immigrants have done.
Think about how hard it must be to get your way from Ethiopia to this country. According to most of the respondents in that thread that got yanked they can't find people who can't even get to work. I can understand why this group wouldn't want to have to compete with somebody who was goal-driven.
Anybody who doesn't have a job in this economy isn't trying or else they have a set of expectations that nobody is willing to subsidize. Despite what Trump has to say, America is already great.
Just ask any one of the immigrants who are willing to leave their home and family to get here.
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Member |
"Despite what Trump has to say, America is already great."
I said this exact thing in the removed thread.
Listened to an interesting talk by Sam Harris last evening, and one of his main points was that (ironically) there is no space in the center of American politics anymore. The extreme ideologues on the left and right have hijacked their parties with (mostly faux) outrage. In fact, much of this country has become experts in "outrage". Outrage is what sells, combined with the power of advertising.
Look at the Democrats returning to Pelosi for leadership, instead of Tim Ryan of Ohio.
Here's an illuminating excerpt from his web page:
"Ryan serves as co-chairman of the Congressional Manufacturing Caucus and remains a leader in the fight to strengthen America's manufacturing base and reform U.S. trade policies. The House Manufacturing Caucus examines and promotes policies to help American manufacturers find trained, educated workers, continue to lead the world in developing new industrial technologies, operate on a level playing field with their foreign competitors, and obtain the capital they need to thrive. Ryan is the leading advocate in the House to impose sanctions on unfair Chinese currency manipulation."
Sounds like a more coherent description of Trumps' "vision" for American workers.
Except a guy like Tim Ryan wouldn't have a cabinet stocked with Goldman Sachs retreads, and he would focus on governing rather than tweeting.
A workers' advocate, wants to fight unfair Chinese manipulation. Young, energetic from a manufacturing state, eight term member on a powerful committee.
And they choose to regurgitate Pelosi...
Wow, let's see who they pick for DNC leader...
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Member |
Finding qualified help:
I'm friendly with a retired sheet metal guy.
Owned his own shop, hugely successful.
Did both functional, and beautiful architectural work. Every one of his employees came from their union program.
Serious, well trained young guys.
I've never been in a union, don't know much about the specifics of a union, but my background and influences has always lead me to be dubious about them.
However, it sure as hell would be nice to have a trained pool of candidates to find employees.
Certainly the education system needs to be reformed, and part of it should be identifying students suited to working in the trades, and having training programs that have them ready on graduation to get to work.
On large commercial installs, I always noticed that the electricians and mechanical guys seemed to have a lot of young, hard working guys. Professional and organized. Has to be the union training and/or the license requirements.
We do none of this, and the quality of our help shows. I got my last guy from a Craigslist add....
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This will probably be yanked also.
A couple non partisan points.
Even if the Chinese practice mercantilism (currency manipulation) Both parties are better off because of trade. Granted certain industries are going get hit harder than others. But the US is the 2nd largest manufacturer in the world because of investment in machinery. There are 165 million people employed in the US with very low unemployment. (spare me the quit looking for work myth, they simply moved to permanent disability)
In order for there to be a conflict there has to be a unknown 3rd party creating the conflict. E.G. The US and Iraq war, created by Saudi Arabia and the defense contractors. In the case of the current outrage look to the media.
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Unions are a viable option but not in the shop IMO, I was in the union a long time ago but didn't work in the shop. The union shops disappeared in the early 80s.
In the shop the answer is machinery and Latino workers or old guys.
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Member |
Pat, you wrote, "In the shop the answer is machinery and Latino workers or old guys."
I'd add outsourcing, and subbing out finishing and installs as options.
I'd try Latinos, but I'm 180 mi from the nearest population center-not happening.
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Member |
Pat, you wrote," in order for there to be a conflict there has to be a unknown 3rd party creating the conflict".
You can't truly believe this?? "creating the conflict" ????
Major wars have happened when the existing order (structure) gets rapidly upset.
Look at both world wars, and the current middle eastern inferno. Rapid change lead to chaos, and a void that competing actors will neccesarily attempt to fill, usually with unwelcome and unanticipated results.
Globalization (and "open borders") has upset the applecart. And now guys like Trump and Bannon want to set everything on fire, so to speak. Trouble is, a void in Eastern Europe will (is being) be filled.
Disengage from Asia, and China is happy to assume the lead role.
When possible, slow and measured change is desirable, where the US maintains as much control and influence as possible over outcomes and systems.
Retreating into a fake and unsustainable reenactment of the US "Glory Days" is a fantasy, and a recipe for a more unstable world that we will have to reengage with at some point-with considerably less strength than WWII days when we stood alone.
Darwin still has it right:
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
Most appropriate for not only human beings and nations, but cabinet shops as well...
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Stay on point. It's your chance to state you'd like an opportunity to in threads to respectfully make your case on economic and when related social issues that effect your business. That it would be a benefit to you and others, first amongst them, Woodweb as it would help get eyes here.
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Member |
"Stay on point" family man?
My commenting on your thread should obviously endorse what your initial post advocated for.
Would you like me to submit my messages to you first so that you can evaluate their suitability before I post?
Maybe you can have Woodweb appoint you to evaluate whether posts are on point..
Pot, Kettle, all of the above??
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AltFactsNo,
We are threading a very fine needle here as I understand it from my emails back and forth with the moderators of Woodweb. We aren't framing a house here but doing inlay veneer work with a high gloss topcoat in essence.
There is a time and place for everything. I thought my post was clear that I was hoping you'd share your thoughts with those at Woodweb to lay out a case for such discussions.
As one of the best smart asses in the room I can take your comment and not break stride, but I have thicker skin that most. I'd love to here your arguments on said topics and then dismantle them with facts and another perspective at a later date.
So ask yourself, do you want one 30 comment post that gets zapped? Or do you want to lay the groundwork for weekly discussions, not of name calling and smart assery, but discussing different points of view and facts on pressing issues that each of us thinks about daily and effects our business, livlihoods and families?
Your call.
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Member |
Family Man: "dismantle them with facts"..
You must use a sledgehammer on your inlay work.
You claimed that you interjected in the last thread to "breakup the Hispanic love fest".
False: out of 17 posts on that thread exactly Two made positive comments about Hispanics. That's 12% rounding up.
Hardly a love fest.
You can't dismantle anything. You are using the same hyperbole and exaggeration that your ruler does. Bravo, you are an excellent imitator.
Two divided by seventeen = .11764706
Fact.
But if you like, we'll call it a love fest.
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When I initially looked up the forum guidelines I wasn't completely clear on what was cool to discuss or not regarding politics. Ex, whether it was responses to posts or starting a thread.
Family man, would you or someone from woodweb like to clarify what posts will or won't be removed regarding political posts/threads? It's not my area of interest, but I think that would help anyone interested in these discussions frame their content.
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Altfactsno, it's actually 5 out of 17 but hey...whose counting?
I've asked, pointed to why I was posting to you twice, fairly nicely, and explained why. If your intent is to have a discussion on these issues email me but I will ask you one more time, pretty please, to stay on point and make the case why it's valuable.
Would you show up here more? Can you act respectfully, even if arguing your point and intrpreof the facts boldly?
Pete, the moderator at least this time around framed it as a getting off OP's topic. I believe but could be wrong that if I, Tim, Pat, David and folks like Altfactsno could be a little more respectful and less personal while not hijacking threads they might and I mean might give us a little more leeway. But that is me reading between the lines and maybe optimistic. I wish they would chime in and give specifics but my guess is they want to be intentionally vague to be able to use subjective moderation. And for that I understand. There have been times where we have gotten carried away and while frustrated at the time that it got zapped later at least could sympathize. Yesterday's though was needlessly nuked except we hijacked a make fun on your bad worker thread.
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Actually FamilyMan, I think that AltFactsNo has it right. You were pretty quick on the trigger about the the Hispanic Love Fest schtick. I was the second respondent that had kind words for Latinos and you came in right after me.
This knee-jerk reaction to our southern neighbors kind of misses the point about what America is all about. Mexico used to own Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah & California. If anybody is the interloper here it might be a non-hispanic.
But history doesn't matter. Demographics does. Given the birthrates of different races it's not going to be long before the majority of our population will be hispanic. There's nothing that Breitbart or the rest of the Alt-Right can do about that.
The jobs went away because the bankers gutted the industries with leveraged buyouts. The same bankers your man Trump hand picked to drain the swamp are still pissing on everybody else.
We had some perfectly good legislation that required investment advisors to maintain a fiduciary relationship with those they advised. This, somehow, wink wink, is to onerous for the bank so once again the little guy in Appalachia is going to pay the bill.
You guys got hoodwinked.
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Pretty easy to go back and count, if you are in doubt, check your inbox for notifications of who posted and when. My math is good for what is currently up and it was well above 25-30% when I posted.
Those I know who supported Trump could not be happier with what he has done. He has only gone up in our books, by a fair margin. He is battling Reagan, if not surpassed him, after a few weeks in office for the greatest president of my lifetime. You will call that crazy but drive to my hometown or middle America and you will find nothing but absolute, enthusiastic support for what he has done.
Since we are getting off topic, I will bite (I already did above). If he deports as many illegals as his supporters hopes he deports and in conjunction with gutting welfare (which will turn around white demographics and turn around minority demographics at the same time), your statement is no longer true. You would be surprised to find how many legal Hispanics who vote support Trump- it's in the mid 40%'s.
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AltFactsNO
The 3rd party thing is a fact, as in the sun may or may not come up tomorrow, but conflict IS caused by an unknown 3rd party.
E.G. Divorce is commonly caused by a mother in law or a divorce lawyer, the question becomes who stands to benefit from the divorce?
Eisenhower warned us about the military industrial complex, the mother of all 3rd parties.
Or in a shop situation, a bunch of years ago I had an employee, a router operator, who was one of my best workers ever, but occasionally would get in minor arguments with me. Then came a period where we had not been in an argument for some time, I remarked that this was the case and he said yes that was true, and that we had not been an argument for 3 months. I asked what happened 3 months ago? He said that is when Joe quit. And I realized the source of the arguments and why I couldn't get a foreman to stick despite having hired several good candidates, clearly Joe had been 3rd partying me on that as well.
I would advice you to consider this point as it is extremely useful in navigating the business world.
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FamilyMan,
I have three questions for you.
If you want to elaborate you can, but a simple yes or no answer would also suffice.
Do you think there should be a thorough investigation of the possible Russian intervention in our election?
Do you think Trump should release his tax returns?
Do you think we should have a completely free press?
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cabmaker,
Russia/election: No, but I would love to find out how many inner cities had more votes cast for HC than there were voters. Russia hacking our election is laughable- even your man Obama said so. This is a side tactic used as a last ditch effort to stop what is coming their way by throwing crazy theories against a wall to see if anything sticks. Anything to stop HC foundation from being investigated, Pizzagate being investigated and from Trump literally draining the swamp. Do I doubt that Russia preferred Trump over Hillary- hell no. She wanted world war 3. She was a neocon. But we interfere in a dozen elections a year more than Russia interfered with ours- and that I would stake my very life on. I would also like to see those leaking information tried for treason and given a very swift trial.
Tax Returns: No, I could care less. Didn't care about Obama's, Bush's or Clinton's (either of them). There is no law to do as such. The very fact that he cannot be bought is one reason we love him. He's 70 years old, has a super model for wife, his kids love him and is filthy rich- he's doing this for two reasons. He loves his country and he loves Donald Trump. I can bet on both of those.
Free Press: We have a completely free press. They can say whatever they want, but the truth is they've been lying for so long that nobody believes anything they are saying. They are crooked and bought and compromised. MSM is dying the death of a thousand cuts a day and to be quite honest I love every second of it and so does everyone I know. They might be the only people we want as bad as the politicians & public servants that have sold us out- just speaking plainly and straight forward.
One thing we have to understand is we all view each fact, bit of information, etc through our own lenses of what we consider good. We have had two people state how good America is right now. There is half the country that does not agree with that. We are ashamed and frustrated of what our country has become. For what it stands for and how it forces us to live our everyday lives and what it means for our children. We guage not only our lives, but what is "good" by completely different metrics. We are having a conversation of what color the sky is- but we don't even agree on what blue is.
As I told cabmaker a month ago we are left with only two choices- dividing the nation in two or war. We are past the point of being able to heal. To put it bluntly as I can the pendelum has swung. We were pushed to far by the left and we are pushing back far harder and we understand we cannot lose for their will be no mercy shown now. It means defeat for one side or the other. If we can do it diplomatically we will separate, otherwise we are inching towards war and some of both sides would honestly state we have already begun. If you are reading this from the metro area and it strikes you as crazy, let me assure you, it's as true to as can be to a third of this country. We believe we are fighting for not just our way of life, but quite possibly our lives.
While I disagree strongly with guys like cabmaker but I don't want to see them across a battle field. I actually like him. I'd like for him to live the life he wants by the values he wants, surround by like folks. But not at my & my loved ones expense. So before you accuse me of being bloodthirsty I am not. I hope for division, done peacefully. But I fear we are too far down the road for that.
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FamilyMan,
Since you have so much confidence in your man I think you would welcome and even encourage a full investigation of the Russian connection to Trump campaign.
This would be an easy one to put to bed.
Your man said unequivocally that he would release his tax returns.
If he has nothing to hide, why is he stonewalling this?
Nice pivot on the HRC-Inner City vote.
Has nothing to do with the question.
The very first thing a dictatorship does is discredit the free press. Step 1 is to call the media "the enemy of the people".
Step 2 is create the state approved press.
Isn't this something you "liberty & freedom" lovers can agree on?
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cabmaker,
Like I said, what color is blue? I don't doubt your a nice man but how you see the world is 180 from how I view it. Can you accept that? I am not trying to change your opinion. There may be the odd reader in the middle 40% that is undecided, but with your type and mine the line is drawn- would you agree?
I answered your questions and I explained why. You're going to have to accept that your view of the facts is simply not shared by half of the folks. What are you going to do with that? I can guarantuee you cannot and will not be able to change what we believe blue is, but that is the battle you keep trying to do. Have us accept your view of the world, it is simply not going to happen. Our morals and even our reasoning is completely different. Your side loves diversity in theory but you refuse to accept that.
Our blue is our blue and yours is yours- the question is how are we going to solve that?
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FamilyMan,
Even your man Trump says Russians interfered with our democratic election.
Why are you afraid of investigating this?
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Is there a reason you refuse to answer questions only ask them?
But I am a good sport. Not afraid, just don't see the point. Until the swamp is drained it wouldn't matter. There is a large part of the FBI and a small part of the CIA that is still honest, but until both numbers are above 95% I see no use. Same goes with the justice department.
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Member |
Family Man,
You've taught me a great lesson here, a sincere thank you.
We are all in a profession that demands planning, accuracy, and integrity. The doors either fit with proper margins, or they don't.
Our product meets spec, or it doesn't. The customer is happy, or they aren't.
Facts.............
cabinetmaker, facts don't matter to these guys; we waste our time in this kind of exercise. I'm certain the majority of the Trump supporters are decent human beings, but there is certainly a Hitler type "cult of personality" at work here.
Any group of people (you and I included) can reach a point where they (we) invest our entire identity in an individual we think will defend our very core. Pointing out their hypocrisy will only harden their stance-they are "resisting" the enemy.
The tax returns-you're damn right I want to see them. I showed 3 years worth to buy my house. What are they scared the returns will reveal? No logical answer why anyone would not want to see them.
Blind loyalty.
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Member |
Pat, I've learned a lot from you, so I take what you say seriously.
How have you gotten better at avoiding or resolving conflicts since becoming aware of "3rd parties"?
I know I'd rather negotiate or communicate with one person at a time, and think a 3rd person complicates things.
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FamilyMan,
Let me answer your question specifically:
If even Trump admits there was Russian involvement in our election then there probably was Russian involvement. For this to be possible there needs to be a citizen from our country assisting and abetting this involvement.
This is treason.
We need to figure out who was involved and punish them in a way that would discourage further treason.
Democratic elections are what separate our nation from dictatorships. If you love freedom & liberty you want to encourage democracy.
Would you agree with this?
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I'm sure you are both nice fellows. I wish you, your families and your shops both the best in health, happiness and success. But I have said my piece as you have yours and if you cannot see that half the country is against what you are saying (as we woke up and saw half is against us), you had better start to realize that & that it is not going to change. The line in the sand has been drawn. How are we going to solve this?
Brexit, Trump, Le Pen and more are coming. Lots more. It's world war 3 or it's realizing that there is no compromise on these issues so we had better divorce and split the house. Put up fences and live as neighbors who leave each other alone and in that find peace.
I have said my piece. I want to thank Woodweb for allowing it so far. In this thread I will not speak again no matter the accusations or questions for there is not an answer other than the two options I have presented in my opinion so therefore I have no more to offer. Take care.
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AltFactsNO
The 3rd person definitely complicates things which is the point.
The solution is to reverse engineer the situation. When you have conflict that does not resolve start looking for the 3rd party.
You won't believe this until you see it.
The next time you have conflict, try it and look for the 3rd party. I guarantee they will be there.
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Member |
Just as an aside to a post a few up from here, Mike Pence already tried to start an alternative News Service to supply the 'Facts to the public', in lieu of what he termed the failure of the media to do so.
Like most of his grand ideas, it was poorly conceived, contrary, and even more poorly rolled out to the - press and the public. One journalist dubbed the Pence news service "Pravda on the Plains." Most people simply laughed at the lame releases the reframed his efforts from mediocre to heroic.
It only lasted a week, but that was in a different climate. The precedent has already been run up the pole, so to speak.
As for this thread? I am fine with it. I can choose to read it or not. I think most of these discussions will not do anything, but if they help keep Woodweb viable and lively, then have at it. I would love to see thousands more participating in the forums as a whole. We would all benefit from the increased rate of exchange.
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cabmaker- you mentioned that mexico used to own parts of the southwest, and west- that was 170 years ago
The British used to own parts of the eastern seaboard; and the French owned parts of our country, as did the Spanish.
oh, and the Dutch too.
I don't get your point.
So what.
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Dean,
That's an easy one.
We're all immigrants.
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David,
Thanks for bringing up "Pravda on the Plains".
The fact that Mike Pence thought it made sense to have a state run newspaper should runs shivers down every freedom & liberty loving man and woman in this country.
The only place you ever see a state run newspaper is in a dictatorship. In dictatorships that is the only kind of newspaper that is allowed.
The first step to becoming in control of the press is to discredit the free press. All you have to do is tell your followers that anything they disagree with is Fake News.
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c/m:
Obviously, we are all immigrants.
Still don't get your point about mexico's one-time ownership of the southwest.
Why should that make a difference now?
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Member |
I notice earlier someone made the claim that the "free press" is getting carved up by Trump.
More alternative facts BS. General Flynn resigned or was fired last week. That is a direct result of the aggressive reporting by
"main stream media". They reported the FACTS of his illegal contact with the Russian ambassador while still a private citizen.
Trump bowed to the media's pressure and questions. He caved, and let go of Flynn-one of Trump's earliest and most vocal supporters (lock her up, lock her up...lock him up??).
Trump can spin it anyway he wants, but the press won that round. But, unlike Trump and his minions, the press isn't doing a dance in the end zone. They've handed the ball back to the ref, and they're ready for the next battle. It will be a 1, 2,3, or maybe 4 year battle; but the press will fight his lies every day. They will report the facts, good or bad for this administration.
Trump supporters would do well to realize it's a long game. Lot's can happen in a year or two. Casual talk of WW3 is ridiculous.
The next war won't be a Civil War reenactment with muskets and canons...
On a positive note, I heard that China is finally applying some sanctions that hurt to the lunatic in N. Korea. And I think Trump deserves credit for that. Surely his call to the Chinese leader had something to do with this. In this instance I say-good job Trump. See, I don't believe in black or white; no battle to the death between left and right.
There should be a common ground of truth and decency (especially in behavior).
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It is a common argument amongst Mexicans that they are taking back Calif and parts of the US.
BTW Texas seceded from Mexico before it was part of the US, which voids this argument about Texas.
Also BTW there is no country in the world that is not subject to immigrant culture at one time or another. E.G. the red hair associated with the Irish is actually from Germanic immigrants to Ireland.
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Thanks for the reply Pat, I'll keep my eyes open, because I know I've had WTF conflicts...
Would have replied sooner, but had a good long day. Business is booming here, has been for the last 3 years. I hear there has been UNBELIEVABLE Carnage and Chaos everywhere else in this country the last 3 (or is it 8) years. Here, anyone who wants a job has one.
We must be lucky in our county of 60,000 that lies hard against the Canadian border.
Or maybe we take care of our environment, and super wealthy people come here to build their luxury retreats. We have a smart and tough Republican Congresswoman who works hard protecting the vital trade with Canada that has helped resurrect a former Air Force town that was on hard times.
That town is doing great now thanks to free trade. Here, way up north, we have Hispanic seasonal farm workers who live in company supplied housing.
Have a great day everyone, let's thank whatever we believe in that we still live in a place where the only thing holding us back is our own intelligence and efforts.
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AltFactsNO
You can't always control this situation but it helps to at least know where it is coming from.
I did a commercial job that was unsuspectingly being monitored by a "owners representative" who justified his expense by pointing out flaws in the job. So we went from an extremely happy contractor, architect, owner to being in court for 5 years along with the rest of the subs.
I did one where the MO of the remodeling contractor (underneath the prime contractor) was to bad mouth everyone on the site to make himself look good. It made the job miserable as the owner then became very finicky, 1/8" feeler gauge at every door opening, nail hole in the toe kick that you could only see if you put your head on the floor and looked up, etc etc
I was working for another shop while the owner was on vacation. When the owner got back he became very irritable. I asked him if worker "M" was bad mouthing me, he replied yes, I said I knew he did because worker "M" had been bad mouthing him to me. Anyway this allowed me to salvage the situation. I work with this owner on projects to this day which can be best described as fun to work on.
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Pat,
Your worker "M" experience certainly rings true-I have an instant distrust of anyone I casually know running down somebody else with know apparent reason.
Owners' reps..have to justify their existence somehow, usually trouble.
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Trump's big press conference last week amounted to a big tantrum directed at the press, because he knew they had bested him in the Flynn affair.
He claimed Flynn did no wrong, but pretzled right up and fired him anyway. If he was 1/2 the tough guy he pretends, he would have said F off, Flynn is my guy and I'm keeping him. Trump withheld the info from Pence for a month, and the press embarrassed him.
Trump's fragile ego can't stand embarrassment, hence the hissy fit. Great theater for the followers, ineffectual posturing to independent observers.
Sad.
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Cabmaker, I have to call you out on this point. My great grandparents immigrated from Slovakia. The difference between them and a lot of Mexicans I see is my family learned the language and tried to fit in. They made it a point to assimilate into there new culture and become a contributing part of society. I'm not saying all Latinos are bad, but a very vocal sector of them are. I'm a libertarian, that didn't have a candidate this year. I didn't want any of the top four choices. Let's give him a chance and see if he can do something. We don't have much to lose. When the baby boomers fully start hitting social security and Medicare, we will most likely become insolvent as a nation. I for one vote to give him a chance. There's nothing to lose.
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Matt,
He's getting his chance, right now.
He'll ultimately be judged on results, by anyone interested in the truth.
If he does a good job, I'll say so, and I did above re China.
I notice another victory for the free press:
The alt right and breitbart darling milo K just was banned from speaking at CPAC
That's the CONSERVATIVE Political Action Conference that censored him. His filth was too much for them, and they did the decent thing.
Facts still Matter, and always will.
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I think the "fake news" narrative is going to dissipate soon. Advances in technology have brought us so much bandwidth that I only have to get my news now from this radio station that caters to left handed-clarinet playing-transgender-fly fisherman-cabinetmakers. I was listening for a while to those right handed guys but they seemed a little extreme so I found someone that my neighbors at the grange said spoke only truth.
Social media can now parse out everything I have ever purchased in my life and every website I have ever visited so they serve it up now just like I like it. They are, however, starting to take some responsibility for their role in this last election. If they have the algorithms to send me advertisements based on patterns of behavior that other self-identified left handed-clarinet playing -transgender-fly fisherman-cabinetmakers enjoy they can certainly also ferret out bullshit & terrorists.
I actually heard today that Amazon is reviewing the Breitbart readership lists. If you tend to hang out with that group they are going to make it so your wife can't shop there anymore. It will be Lysistrata all over again.
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Thank you Woodweb for letting this thread continue for as long as it has. And thank you Family Man for your passionate endorsement of a free press.
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As a red haired off the boat Irish immigrant, my red hair is not Germanic its Norse.
All major coastal cities in Ireland were established by the Norse. They established Dublin in 989 AD.
The Saxons & Franks never made it to Ireland. The Normans were in actual fact French by way of the Danes.
There is Iberian blood in the Irish also by way of the Milesians.
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Was the red hair indigenous to Ireland?
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It certainly is now!
I have been in Scandinavia and they don't seem to have anywhere the number of red haired people!
In my primary school class there was a whole row of boys, maybe 8 out of 30 kids who had red hair. They called us the Red Brigade. Its no fun growing up with red hair, even in Ireland.
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The point was that every country is subject to immigration since the beginning of time.
I read that Red Hair was imported into Ireland.
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I am aware of that.
Irish people are very protective of their history, we fought enough for it.
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Wall Street Journal reported today that foreign born workers make up about three quarters of workers on US farms. Nearly half of these workers in 2014 were undocumented.
Who's going pick the crops?
Where does this labor come from if they are all deported?
All the buildings we work in need to be sheetrocked & roofed. Who is going to do the sheetrocking and roofing?
A different article in the same edition indicates that Trump says he can deliver growth above 3% over the next decade. (Never mind that every other economist forecasts 2%) Problem with this scenario is that our population is aging. (I would guess the majority of people on this forum are over 50 years old). Where is the productivity going to come from if we don't open up immigration?
The emigrants that come to this country tend to be younger and because of this "shoulder some of the costs of pensions and health benefits for the soaring retiree population".
Any Trump supporters care to speak to these issues rather than just talk about "freedom & liberty"?
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They are already here just too young.
FWIW I don't have a problem with immigration just subsidizing them.
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Immigration and illegal immigration are two different issues.
I would elaborate ,but you lack the aptitude to understand.
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I think the govt is complicit in allowing illegals to remain here and work.
Since most companies cannot pay cash to their employees, they must write a check and deduct payroll as an expense- and of course they withhold payroll taxes too.
Illegalsare given a tax ID number from the IRS, so this can happen;
The FICA payroll tax withheld goes into the system- but the illegal can never collect unless they become legal.
So the social security system potentially reaps billions for "free".
why would the govt want to give that up?
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Dean, while I'm not an expert at paying illegal labors, it was explained this way to me by a landscaper. The illegal immigrant may or may not get a tax number. If they have one the they don't get paid much and claim as many depend ants as they can so the keep as much of their check that they can. Not being paid much means they don't contribute much to Social Security. They will also work for cash for a lot of the employers who pay above the table(overtime is paid cash). The ones that don't have a tax number get paid cash as the ratio of what the employer makes to what he pays them makes up for the additional taxes the employer pays(or the employer buys a new truck to offset his income).
The other end of this issue is the drain the illegals but on the healthcare and the schools. I cannot believe the federal government benefits monetarily from illegal workers.
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Kalikid,
Let me break this down into small words and type slowly:
Who is going to pick our crops?
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Immigrants don't have to be illegal.
BTW you guys think that pickers make minimum wage. Many make close to $20.00 per hour because of piece work.
BTW by far and away the best workers I have ever hired were former farm workers. Smart and kick ass and easy to get along with.
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Pat,
Part of the word immigrant is migrant.
The crops in this nation are harvested by people who follow the crop. They move from locale to locale as the vegetables and fruits ripen. Without them our farming industry completely breaks down.
Do you think a bunch of displaced caucasians from the fly-over states are going to come live in the camps and pick fruit on a piece rate basis?
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I find it helpful when waxing economicus to look at the data.
The narrative is worst than useless.
I think family man has some data on this above?
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Pat,
I will give you big tip about "data".
The first thing any economist does is come up with a thesis and then find numbers to support the thesis. The exchange theory economists can even prove on a chalkboard that there is no such thing as "need", there is only "want".
You start with a set of fundamentals, the things you assume to be the foundation of logic. These fundamentals define what is legitimate to investigate and what is not. You never spend any time investigating things that are not consistent with the fundamentals.
As a consequence to this commitment to fundamentals all of your subsequent investigation tends to corroborate your fundamentals and they take on a certain legitimacy.
You can even prove this legitimacy with charts.
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Tim,
I have a pro tip for you, don't assume, if you are assuming you are not Looking...
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Dean, while I'm not an expert at paying illegal labors, it was explained this way to me by a landscaper. The illegal immigrant may or may not get a tax number. If they have one the they don't get paid much and claim as many depend ants as they can so the keep as much of their check that they can. Not being paid much means they don't contribute much to Social Security. They will also work for cash for a lot of the employers who pay above the table(overtime is paid cash). The ones that don't have a tax number get paid cash as the ratio of what the employer makes to what he pays them makes up for the additional taxes the employer pays(or the employer buys a new truck to offset his income).
The other end of this issue is the drain the illegals but on the healthcare and the schools. I cannot believe the federal government benefits monetarily from illegal workers.
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The issue really comes down to conflating legal immigration and illegal immigration...
We are a nation of immigrants everyone knows that... but an illegal immigrant takes away the job of a legal immigrant just as it does a natural born citizen... did the legal immigrant, who struggled and went through the legal process to become a citizen all of a sudden lose his work ethic?
This is about MONEY... To put that into perspective, somehow I think that if a company wanted to employee an illegal immigrant over a legal one/citizen and they had to pay a 35-50% tax to do so, making it MORE expensive to employ an illegal immigrant, all of a sudden, the narrative would change, and the legal immigrant/citizen would be more in demand...
I don't hold animus towards ANY family that wants to come to the USA in search of opportunity to better their families lot in life, but if the rest of us are subject to rules and laws, it should also be the case for illegal immigrants...
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