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Fastening finished ends on frameless wall cabinets --  0 -- 
10/17
Our 3/4" melamine carcases are CNC cut with blind dado joinery, fastened together with zip-r screws.
To do the occasional finished end (no applied panel) we cut the end from prefinished plywood, finished side in, and shop-paint the outside. We cannot screw these because the screws would be seen.
We've been using urethane adhesive in the dado and applied to the blind side of the tenon, and so far so good. This requires overnight clamping.
We are considering changing to butted joints for these sides, and a combination of glued-in dominos and pocket screws. We have not the means of doing RTA fasteners.
What do you do for this joinery situation?
10/17 #2: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
What about pocket screws. You could do them from the bottom outside and top outside answers a butt joint.
10/17 #3: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
Pocket screws or biscuits or a combination of both, depending upon the job. But, from what I see, the Lamello Clamex would the perfect solution, if I did a lot of this work.
Mark
10/17 #4: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
Thanks for the responses. Turns out Titan and maybe others makes a KD/RTA fastener that can be prepped in CNC and not require an edge bore.
So we'll use it. Shown attached is a wall-cab with a finished end and three such fasteners at each joint. Are two sufficient?
View higher quality, full size image (719 X 859)
10/17 #5: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
Gene you mean Titus not Titan correct?
10/17 #7: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
Yes, Titus. Sorry for the mistype.
These.
View higher quality, full size image (831 X 363)
View higher quality, full size image (1433 X 361)
10/17 #8: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
These will work also
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&
amp;ie=UTF-8#q=modeez
Link
10/17 #9: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
Gene,
Those Titus fasteners are similar to Hefele's Rafix connectors. Expect your joints to shift 1.0-1.5mm when tightening them. If you use them on the outside of the top and bottom, the top will shift one direction and the bottom will shift in the other direction, making matters worse. Their good for closets, but for frameless cabinetry...I don't know.
If you end up using them, please let us know how they work.
Mark
10/18 #10: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
Is it really a big deal to your customer that there are a few cover caps on the inside of the cabinet?
10/18 #11: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
As Mark mentioned, Lamello P-system connectors are perfect for this application and are designed to accomplish secure fastening of end panels with an invisible joint. The machining man be done easily with the Zeta P2 hand tool or with CNC integration. There is no "walking" of the connectors when they are tightened. You have 2-3mm of lateral adjustment before they are tightened in case your hand-machining is slightly off - it's all very easy. Clamex connectors tighten with nearly 200 lbs of clamping force. I'm the Lamello product mgr. at Colonial Saw if you have any other questions: 781.585.4364 x.206
Lamello P Systems
10/18 #12: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
Gene
Do you have an option for doweling ?
We are using dowels with face frame and frameless with great success. About 60 minutes before we hang doors and stress
Good luck
10/18 #13: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
No option for doweling, but we have two others: biscuits and Festool Dominos.
A line of 5mm x 30mm dominos would probably be a better solution than the exposed fasteners.
10/18 #14: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
Domino would be great leave about an 1/8 or so for drops of glue on either end of the domino
10/19 #15: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
Website: http://www.dreamclosets.org
We have used the rafix and the Lamello. The Lamello works extremely well and is fast and easy. I would recommend looking into that connector.
10/19 #16: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
Maybe a stupid question, but can you not just glue the blind dado with titebond?
10/19 #17: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
Gene,
Why would you use the dominos over biscuits? They both require glue and clamps and from what I have seen on youtube, the process to mill, glue and assemble a domino joint is much longer than the biscuits joints.
Mark
10/19 #18: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
Phill,
Are you using the Clamex fasteners for your closet systems? And, if so, is one person easily able to install by themselves?
Mark
10/19 #19: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
Website: http://www.dreamclosets.org
We use the Rafix from Hafele for our closet systems. We do a variety of frameless products for other companies so when the situation calls for an invisible conection such as Gene refers to, we use the Lamello. It is simple and one person can handle it.
10/19 #20: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
Lots of videos at lamello for Zeta P2.
http://www.lamello.com/en/home/join-wood/p-system/clamex-p-medius-1410.html
10/19 #21: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
Gene,
Since you are using eCabinets Software for design, you could use the Lock Dado with Pocket Screw joinery and the machine will cut the screw pockets and peck the surface of the mating part.
View higher quality, full size image (1125 X 864)
10/19 #22: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
That's the best solution, Kerry, and thanks.
We can do just that, and it takes away the need for clamping if we went the biscuit or domino route.
10/19 #23: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
Kerry,
Do you know anyone who is using this method? I remember when it came out, thinking that it was an awesome solution. But my tests proved otherwise, so now I am intrigued again.
Caveat, I don’t have a CNC, but I have a friend who has a Thermwood 43 and we were discussing the benefits of this system and I believe he told me that the pocket was similar to the one created with a Castle machine. I couldn’t leave it alone, so I took the pilot bit out of my Castle machine and made pockets in plywood and particle board. When I drove the screws, without a pilot/clearance hole, the core split apart. How is the CNC dealing with this? And, what is, “peck the surface of the mating part” doing if there is no way of judging where the screw will come through? Please help me understand this better. Also, do you have pictures of the parts off the CNC?
Mark
10/20 #24: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
Mark,
We have been using this joinery several years for the same purpose as Gene, to fasten finished ends of some Mella/Wood combination.
There is some swelling at the joint but auger point screws help. As usual a lot depends on the quality of the material core.
The pecking (which can be turned on or off) is mainly to remove the hard surface of the melamine where the screw is going to enter to expose the core.
The way Thermwood designed the pockets there is a tiny shelf in the center of the pocket to rest your screw point to get the angle correct since there is not pilot hole.
10/20 #25: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
The Thermwood router does not give one a through hole for the screw, the way a Kreg bit does.
I'm told by the shop that will cut this that when they do cab assembly of units with this detail, they predrill using an 1/8th-inch bit before driving the pocket screws. Not the part the screw will go into, but the part with the hole pocket.
So that's what we'll do, and we'll get some longer bits for the jobs.
10/20 #26: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
We pocket screw on the cnc and pre drill as you describe. Works like a charm and saves lots of time.
10/20 #27: Fastening finished ends on frameles ...
Thanks guys!
Now the CNC pocket hole process is very clear.
Mark
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