Safety Speed Cut Thermwood Corporation ECabinet Systems

Cabinetmaking

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Tips for chipping at trimming station on bander?

1/22/20       
MarkB Member

Holzher 1435SE and having a bit of an issue with what seems to be the shoes on the trimming station slightly chipping white melamine. Im having a feeling its the material (this is just plain jane commodity white) but it has just seemed to pop up on a few sheets.

Cleaned the shoes really well and they are nice and clean/shinny. Air pressure is spot on. Its chipping on the bottom face so It really tough to see it as a part is going through.

Any input is appreciated.

1/22/20       #2: Tips for chipping at trimming stati ...
Stewart Member

Commodity melamine does chip like crazy at least in some brands - I've seen that issue before too. I would suspect that changing materials would be your best long term fix but, in the mean time, just make sure your trimmer cutters are super sharp and ride just above the melamine surface. You don't want the cutters to touch. Let your scrapers finish that last little hair line. Your edge quality will greatly improve.

1/22/20       #3: Tips for chipping at trimming stati ...
Mark B Member

Sorry Stewart,
I should have been more clear. This isn't any chipping to do with the trimming itself. Its actually on the end trimming station where the chipping is happening. The cutting is fine. But where the shoe that pushes the trimming motor down on its arm, where it contacts the work it's chipping and it's happening on both the leadi in and the lead out. I had originally suspected that there was glue or trash or something on those shoes and I clean them real good and polish them up and the problem is gotten way better but it's still happening a little bit.

The actual trimming is fine.

1/22/20       #4: Tips for chipping at trimming stati ...
Rob Young  Member

Website: nutekmachinery.com

I always hated to deliver the message that the chipping problem at the end trim station was material related, but sometimes it is. There are of course other possibilities as well. How are you sizing your panels? Are you using a CNC with compression bits, a sliding table saw, or beam saw? Don't overlook the possibility that the material is being weakened in the sizing process. The end trim stations on the 1435 weren't the gentlest of end trimming stations. The air pressure settings are extremely important. You said they are spot on, so I'll take you at your word. Looking beyond the regulated pressure, try adjusting the flow controls on the cylinders or valves, whichever location they are on your machine. You can reduce the force of contact by opening them up. Of course, you don’t want to open them so much that the tracer show loses contact with the panel while it’s being trimmed. You should also check the bushings in the linkage. If they get sloppy and you can wiggle the assembly back and forth there is a possibility that the assembly could bind. Edgebanders improved when linear rails and bearing were used on an angle making contact between the station and the panel a little less extreme, but that system has its faults and can still cause chipping and denting of soft veneers.
The horizontal mounted end trimmers used on higher quality machines like OTT, some of the higher end Homag and Ima edgebanders are by far the gentlest way to end trim a panel. Your edgebander is up there in years and eventually you may want to replace it so do your research on the machining process the edges go through on your edgebander. The invisible glue line is only part of the equation when producing a quality product. If the machining process isn’t up to par, you’ll find yourself spending a good deal of time reworking the panel. I’ve referenced a link to a page on NuTek’s site that shows the horizontal end trim stations in action along with other edgebander videos. Scroll to the bottom of the page to view it.
If all else fails find a good Holzher Technician to tune up your edgebander to get the most out of it.

Horizontal End Trim Station

1/22/20       #5: Tips for chipping at trimming stati ...
Mark B Member

Thanks for the great info Rob. Parts are cnc with compression. Pressure on the machine I mentioned is just the main regulated pressure. I checked it and the cleanliness of the shoes first. The pressure of both stations (to me) has always seemed a little firm but I've never adjusted the flow controls on the cylinders. I will note their current settings in the morning and perhaps back them off a touch. I've checked the play in the linkage and while there is a very small amount it doesnt seem bad enough to bind but will recheck it as well.

No news that it's an older machine.

I'm heavily suspecting the material having run some other panels with no problem.

I really appreciate the information. Will tweak it a bit in the am and fingers crossed.

1/23/20       #6: Tips for chipping at trimming stati ...
Kirk

Since this hasn't been mentioned yet, here's my 2 cents. Are you cutting your parts on a flat table CNC and using a tab or onion skin so parts don't move? If so, on the second pass of the tool to separate the parts, it may be leaving an ever so slight lip that your end trim blade is catching with it's downward rotation. Try block sanding the lead in and lead out ends and see if the chipping goes away. The lip may be so slight that you can't even feel it so try the block sander.

1/23/20       #7: Tips for chipping at trimming stati ...
daniel wipf

I have had issues with the underside chipping away on the rear cutter. but I found my problem to be the mounting plate was twisted up just a little bit causing the guide shoe to hit the bottom edge of the panel instead of hitting the panel flush. took awhile to figure it out but once I had it fixed I havn't had issues no matter what the material was.

1/23/20       #8: Tips for chipping at trimming stati ...
Stuart Douglas

FWIW, we cut our panels on a flat panel CNC with compression bits, and we flip those parts over to edgeband. We had the problem you described, and could NEVER get it to go away, but only on the router cut pieces. The action of the compression bit, especially if has been sharpened, and the speed at which the panels are cut meant that the edge was "just" our of square. I had trouble measuring it over the thickness, it was less than 0.001" I would encourage you to check into shimming the trimmer station though, that is a great solution. It would take very little to make that change on the bander, and would allow you to run parts face up. Also, try waxing the guides with some "butchers wax" or similar to make them ultra slick, that seemed to halp as well.

1/23/20       #9: Tips for chipping at trimming stati ...
MarkB Member

Thanks for all the responses. Really appreciated.

This morning went over the shoes again and made sure they were dead clean, stoned them very slightly incase there were any knicks, backed the pressure off a bit on the trimming station and the chipping on the first side cut went away immediately, second side got worse. Took Rob's advice and throttled the fall of the second trim slightly and for now the first batch of parts are fine.

Kirk, That was my very first thought when this happened, that the router had developed a knick or was leaving a tiny flash on the bottom side but even flipping the parts it would still happen but still watching it closely. Im trying to address 1-2 issues at a time hoping to find the true cause.

Daniel, I need to look at that a bit next, Im going to put a thick piece of MDF in the bander and make sure those shoes are hitting square to the panel (as square as I can get them).

Stuart, I will hopefully see if the shimming is necessary with the thick part test and checking the shoe alignment. Like I say, its trimming fine, its just the shoe on both trims was chipping out the material where it contacted the edge of the part.

At this point Im honestly feeling like it is some percentage of commodity material, and the trimming station pressure.

Its back to banding just fine at the moment but that can of course go awry in a nanosecond.

Thanks again guys for all the input. Major major help.


Post a Response
  • Notify me of responses to this thread
  • Subscribe to email updates on this Forum
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)