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Tinting Sherwood Sealer T67F33/25
I am working out a finishing schedule for a set of medium brown\golden colored cabinets in maple, and want to include a tinting toner coat or two.
-Sand bare wood to 150 grit
-3 mist coats sherwood dye stain concentrate in denatured alcohol to account for 70% of final color
-1 coat T67F3 reduced 200% wash coat
-Light scuff maroon scotchbrite
-BAC wipe stain to account for 10% of color
- 1 coat T67F3 reduced 10% sealer
-2 mist coats T67F3 reduced 200%, tinted with above mentioned dye concentrate colors, as a toner
-No sanding or scuffing, but make sure to start next coat of CV within (2?) hours
-1 coat Sherwood CV reduced 10%
-Scuff\sand 320 grit
-1 coat CV
I am reading in the Sherwin Williams "paint docs" for T67F3 that it can be tinted with Chroma Chem colorants, but no mention of using their dye stain concentrate.
The dye stain concentrate "paint docs" say that it can be used as a tinting dye toner, but no mention of what to mix it with.
Is this just SW wanting to sell more gallons by having "custom toners" blended in 1 gallon units, rather than the finisher adding a bit of dye to 32 ounces or whatever is needed?
Also, is the no-scuff after toner a problem with a 2 hr re-coat window?
FYI... your adding a lot of steps but if that is your comfort zone then go with it.
As I am new to building deep colors with multiple steps, I am trying to cover all my bases.. that said, your process sounds way faster for the 33 doors, drawers, multiple end panels, and face frames I will need to finish. When you spray the BAC stain, do you wipe off? If not, do you ever have any problems with adhesion?
get away from the BAC. its BAD.. Ask about their D59 series of stain. Thats solvent reducible and much better chemistry.
Also, you dont have to put a wash coat before the wiping stain for deep colors. You can just spray the dye then wipe stain. Personally i never put wiping stains over sealer (delamination risk). I would just spray the dye, then the d59 and seal that in.
What (in practice) do you like more about the stain you mentioned vs the BAC? My rep just gave me the BAC without telling me about anything else.
The actual brochure for the BAC and Dye concentrates shows a schedule with a wash coat under the BAC..
BAC (Blend-a-color) is very bland pigment. It looks muddy, and never really penetrates (just floats on top of the wood).
The D59 SB stains are much better performing. The depth and clarity you can achieve with them paired with the S61 dyes is MUCH better than anything involving BAC.
Skip the wash coat my friend. Its an added step that adds no value in my opinion. If anything its making your finish schedule more susceptible to failures due to adhesion (ESPECIALLY having that bland pigment floating around on top of sealed wood)
Ditto about BAC stains. Extremely MUDDY.
Exactly.... We have the full line of D59 Tints with a 3 row fillon dispensing machine and gram scale setup to do all our mixes and use the Sherwin Aurora program to store our formulations. Much better to work with that the BAC colors...
Wow. Well, being that I am in the sample stage of this project, I can change it up.
I was using the wash coat to avoid blotching. I have not sone large enough samples to see if it was even needed yet. I will try skipping it.
I was surprised to see very little change with the BAC over dye. The toner at the end really did the last bit of color change.
Is D 59 sold in quarts?
Here is a photo of the first sample I played with. It is the schedule above, with different toners dramatically changing the look of the wood.
My question to those with experience:
Do I even want a wiping stain at all with this color over white hard maple? Would dye and toner be fine?
I had assumed that the wipe stain was to make it deeper looking..
Here is the photo of the sample board along with the casing they gave me to match for the cabinet color..
l agree with BAC assessment; muddy with no binder pretty much sums it up. That said l use it a lot as the nearest SW wood finishes store to me is 300 miles away and my local SW paint store only carries the BAC. It' not all bad and l do get satisfactory results with it; l like the 1 hour recoat time, and muddy can also translate to less blotching even without a wash coat on maple/cherry/alder (especially if you use Shane's method).
Now seeing where you headed as far as color saturation I would see no need for a wipe or spray/no wipe combo. That color could be easily brought up to full saturation with simply laying down the color with diluted dye stain in one sitting on the spray horse....Looks pretty standard and you could get 95% there with one gun and pull in the rest of the color to the sample with a gun or two with some basic colors to pull it to the sample... Judging from my monitor it looks very much like what mohawks perect brown would be... Take 4 oz. and add 28 oz. acetone and build the color up with multiple passes... Then make up the same strength formula of Mohawk raw umber... and another with Mohawk burnt umber and add to taste to pull the sample in the rest of the way.... lock it in with sealer.. scuff & one pass of topcoat... check your control sample wetted down to check color.. adjust as necessary and lock it down with topcoat... You should be able to get there no problems with a 2-3 coat sytem and only twice in the booth
Shane, that is exactly what I would like to hear.
I was starting to suspect that, but with so little experience in the clear finishes, needed to hear it from someone else.
So to put it simply, diluted dye stain that requires 3 passes to achieve 90% color, then vinyl sealer with some tint that in two passes will do the last 10%?
Should I bother sealing over the dye clear first, or just hit the raw dyed wood with toner right away?
Wait, after re-reading your last post, Shane, I have a question:
Are you meaning I want to use two different dye colors?? First a gold, then a brown??
From my playing around, I see that it gets close by dying the wood yellow (a dye made of SW yellow and brown concentrates), then with the same yellow\brown dye (plus a single drop of red and a single drop of blue; to mute the bright yellow) in a toner..
I never thought of spraying first one dye color, then another..
By the way, thank you for your input.
A word of caution: Practice (alot) when using just a dye stain to achieve color.
Make sure you understand the fine nuances of spraying dye.
It is not easy to achieve uniform results; say 30 door fronts, 40 drawers, fillers, etc.
I like the adhesion test youve done there on the bottom of your sample! Checking your system is always a great idea!
Me personally, i would make that color in a spray on stain formulated with dye and p63.
The p63 is sherwin williams' vinyl basecoat system. When paired with s61 dye, it gives you the "body" you need to simulate a stain. Or in other words, it "muddies" the dye up. Also it ads a bit of sealer as a binder. This allows you to achieve what your aiming for in a single step. You just spray on the stain, seal it, scuff then topcoat.
So basically if i were to make the color at the top of your sample, i would start with 400 grams of acetone, 4 grams Burnt Umber P63, and .3 grams Yellow S61. Then i would spray it in medium passes until it reaches the tone desired. (If you spray light passes you will get a uniform color that blocks the grain out. Medium passes with just enough saturation in the grain to define, but wet passes starts to coagulate around the grain and looks bad)
From there, seal, review and adjust. May need a touch of orange dye. But i would definitely have that color dialed in within 4 or 5 tries on a single color application rather than having to add additional toner coats.
i must have posted at the same time as shane. Funny how similar our approaches would be
except i see no reason to layer different colors. you could easily get that color in a single stain. No toner. Just spray, seal, topcoat. Maybe im expecting too much of people who call themselves finishers, but spraying dye isnt difficult. Staying consistent requires nothing more then a well constructed step board as your control.
You know what, here... this should get you on the right track... i keep a baseball card sized sample of all the colors i make (i have several catalogs) ... each one i put the job # and arch refference of the color, and i have a spreadsheet similar to aurora that i track the formula and finish schedule. I opened up one of them and right on the first page was a color similar to yours on maple.. here is the formula and schedule:
Acetone 230 grams
1. Sand 150
I was suggesting that you would be able to get the color 90% there just by spraying a diluted dye stain. Obviously this is all based on how well you know the dyes strength your working with and how well you know the color between your eyes/brain communicating.. We normally have a basic mix of Mohawk dye colors blended together by weight or part/volume in our formulas. that is a starting point because we submit samples months before actuall production begins in our case... sometimes the sample is veneer flitch specific so later we are basically working with the same set of trees submitted but most times its generic so the recipe is just a starting point of reference. All my finishers use their eyes to spray other layers of dye on top of the basic formula to bring the color as close as we can before a light pass of sealer... This way we have very little color work to do when it hits the topcoat booths... those guys put the whole section together and bring it in to 100% match together so everything looks good together... It takes a lot of experience to nail it but is achievable as long as you don't go to far to fast... my guys might have five cup guns hanging with colors they use on a regular basis to bring a color in without even having to think about it much...typically we have guns loaded up daily with lemon yellow, burnt umber, raw umber, we use a custom mix dye for black to the green side and use Mohawk black for the redish/purplish black, yellow, red, green.... whatever we need to kick it the direction we need.... key is definitely not too far too fast Our normal diluted mixtures for Mohawk dyes are 4 oz. to 28 oz. of acetone and the S61 from Sherwin we reduce 100% on most colors and the red and green we reduce 200%.. they are strong!.
First off, thank you both so much for taking the time to explain all this. It will be put to use.
From the both of you, Kevin and Shane, I am getting that the idea is to spray the dye as close to final color as possible in multiple passes, up to 90%. Then you can either use a dilute finish with drops of dye (toner), -OR- continue with different colors of dye over top of the first dye coat, wetting with mineral spirits to see the actual effect..?
Also, I had been measuring the dye by drops.. is it better to weigh it? I do have a sensitive scale.
if you have a scale that is accurate to the tenth of a gram then I would use that for formulations over volume (tablespoons,ounces etc etc).
Thanks. I can't wait to get out in the shop and spend more time trying this stuff out.
Yes, my scale will do .01 grams. I will switch to that.
Do I need to worry about fading with only the dye doing the coloring? (no wipe stain)