Seriously purchasing two stager compressor for spraying

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Hello group! I want to purchase an EMAX silent air compressor for lacquer spraying. I'm presently using an Apollo HVLP sprayer so I don't know much about getting started with a two stage compressor. If I wanted to spray lacquers, lacquer bases, conversion varnish and acrylic paints what continuous CFMs would I need? Also I like to get information on airline from compressor to pot and of course moisture control. Thank you!

Jared Emery

Short answer: depends on your air requirements. Is it just you, or will your compressor have to feed 2 helpers blazing away with air sanders? Also depends on what kind of gun or pump you'll use. AAA pumps like the Kremlin EOS don't use a huge amount of air, considerably less than an HVLP gun & pressure pot in my experience. A rule told to me by a compressor salesman (so take it with a teaspoon of NaCl) is that if your compressor is kicking on more than 6 times per hour, you should move up to a screw compressor. As for moisture control, you could start with a dessicant type like the Devilbiss CT30. Not as expensive as a refrigerated dryer, but not as effective either. Depends on what your climate is.

Mike

Member

No, It's just me spraying and no one else will be using the compressor.
I was just talking to a dealer in Delaware about a Gardner Denver Rotary Screw oilless 7.5hp 25 CFM. But I don't know the price tag at this point. I just want something for myself that will give me great results.
Thanks for the tip on the Deilbiss CT30.

Bruce

Member

Do you really require something that big
Could be be 3 phase and $5000
Get a Kremlin 15C25 but depends what your needs are

Jared Emery

7.5 hp is a lot of compressor for a one man show. I have a 6 person shop running on that size. But hey, if you have the cash flow to pull the trigger, now you have room to grow.

nick

Member

I have a old (built in the 80's)5 HP Curtis with a 80 gallon tank that's rated @ 17cfm @175psi (when new) that I got for $300.00. I operate a 1 man custom finish shop using a array of spray equipment some consuming 16cfm and have never been short of air...that said if the Curtis ever dies I'd consider (dream of?) buying what your looking at

nick

Member

Just in case my response was a bit too cryptic...a quality used 5-7.5hp reciprocating 2 stage, 3 phase air compressor from your local craigslist are usually a great bang for the buck, 50-80% off a new one...I have used my $300.00, 30 year old one every day for 7 years without issue and my bet is that I will retire before it does.
I live in a fairly dry climate (even when spraying all day, all I drain from the tank the next morning is a couple of ounces of water) so because of this I have only needed to use a high quality oil/dirt filter and a moisture filter for trouble free spraying.

Mike

Member

I always buy new equipment; I never consider used. To be honest with myself and considering with some of you guys said I'm not quite sure if I need 7.5hp or 25 CFM. Can I use a Kremlin 15C25 to spray for lacquers on furniture grade wood products and expect no orange peel? Very interesting.

MarkB

Member

Some other information for you. I would agree with the other post that you're probably way over buying for the size of your operation. I personally heard several times from our compressor rep that if you over by and you put a screw compressor in for a shop and it winds up barely running that it's actually worse for the compressor then you can imagine and you can have problems. Screw compressors are made to run a lot. And if youve got a shop where you're spraying just by yourself that compressor is probably almost never going to cycle depending on the tank size.

I'd agree with the other posts about a large two-stage recip. We have four men in the shop we've got a Quincy 7.5 hp 80 gallon running around 27 cfm's at 175. We have a refrigerated dryer and a really expensive coalescing oil filter. I don't think we could outrun the compressor if we tried.

In my opinion, if you're spraying, quality of air as opposed to quantity of air would be more your concern. I'd invest in a good refrigerated dryer a modest compressor and good filtration before I'd ever go to a screw.

Mike

Member

Mark, great information concerning rotary screw damage due to not running long. I just got off the phone with my lacquer supplier and he is also recommending the Kremlin EOS. He also said that the Kremlin EOS is the industry standard. Since it's just me doing the spraying maybe the Kremlin is the best and all I need.

Bill Stanisci

A rotary screw compressor is meant to run. It likes to have load on it. When it cycles from loan to unload is when it has the chance to put oil in the lines. Depending on the machine it will unload and turn off eventually. Probably not right for what you are doing.

I like used equipment sometimes. Depending on the machine it is a no brainer. Like a shaper, if it looks OK, bearings are cheap. A compressor I am a little leary of. Did they change the oil? We have sold our old compressors as we have grown and we keep meticulous records of maintenance. When we sell the machine one of the photos provided is the maintenance record. I think it adds value. Beyond that there is no way to know.

For you a compressor is the heart of the operation. It goes down you are down.

As others have said, clean dry air is important. Don't skimp on the treatment of the air.

Good luck.

Bruce

Member

I'm very happy with my Kremlin 15C25 using WB pigment Lacquers. Installed a DeVilbiss CamAir CT30 Series Desiccant Air Dryer/Filter System, Kremlin fluid heater and 4.5 cfm compressor.

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Mike

Member

Alright, now I'm starting to get this organized in my mind. I believe I'm going to go with a Kremlin 10-C18. My new question is what size air compressor do I need to supply it?

Of course, I want to get something quiet like a rotary screw but someone mentioned that if it's not running all the time damage might incur to it. As you know I'm a one-man band and I only spray about five days out of the month.

Mike

Member

Bruce, thanks for posting, very interesting set of you have. Is that the compressor you use to supply your Kremlin?

Bruce

Member

Hello yes this is the compressor I use but recommend a vertical 8 cfm model as they are fairly economical. I would also recommend a Kremlin15C25 if your using WB products

Mike

Member

Hello Bruce and Thank you for getting back. There's a lot of information I would like to learn from you. I've been studying your pictures and the things you have mentioned especially the Kremlin fluid heater!! I also agree with you about the Kremlin15C25. Lately I've been spraying a lot of white base, pigment lacquer and of course every once in a while I spray conversion varnish and acrylic paint. When I get everything together I would like to chat with you so that I can learn how to create a set up like you have. But for now I like to continue chatting with you and the group concerning the purchases I will be making it very soon. Thank you!

Bruce

Member

Hello Mike I setup a remote setup for the Kremlin inside my paint booth.

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Mike

Member

Can anybody recommend a reliable company to purchase the Kremlin EOS?

maple leaf

where are you located.

Mike

Member

I'm located in Pennsylvania but with online shopping that does not matter.

Thank you!

Mike

Member

Bruce you said 8 cfm but at what PSI?
I'm thinking 45 PSI to be safe.

Jared Emery

I picked up my EOS 15 from my Sherwin Williams dealer (not to brag, but it was a screaming deal during an exhibition, darn near half price. Ok I'm bragging). You might consider getting a pump and gun setup that you can get parts from locally. Gun tips, o-rings, fluid hoses, they go bad at the worst possible moment.

Bruce

Member

Hello Mike for example Home Depot has a cast iron vertical belt drive A/c for around $800, should meet all your needs. One draw back it is stationary.Husky 60 gallon single stage stationary electric air compressor features a cast iron, oil lubricated pump. Pump features include a cast iron crankcase & cylinder body, aluminum head & valve plate which allows for better heat dissipation, durable stainless steel reed valves, and an oil level sight glass with easily accessible oil fill. For maximum performance and efficiency the Husky 60 gallon runs on a heavy duty induction 230 volt motor. 155 psi max operating pressure allows the user optimum tool performance.

CFM at 40 psi is 13.4 and CFM at 90 psi is 11.5
Large capacity, 60 gallon

Mike

Member

Bruce, I think the same time you went to Home Depot I went to Lowes. This is the one I was looking at, at Lowe's.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-60-Gallon-Electric-Vertical-Air-Compressor/3370356

It's just as loud as a two stage 86 dB.
It's either that or a rotary screw And i'm not paying that kind of money.

Bruce

Member

The air usage for the Kremlin is 4 cfm max
Rotary screw compressor are in a completely different league and generally 3 phase power are min $5000. It is used for a constant air demand, oil free air.
There is nothing wrong with those cast iron a/c from Lowes or HD for the money. Nice having ac 60 gal air reservoir

Mike

Member

Bruce, the one from Lowes is the one I'm going to buy. I have two questions for you.
Which of the two fluid heaters do you have?
Kremlin HeatStripper Paint Heater or the Kremlin One-Pass Paint Heater. Now referring to the picture you posted of your 15C25. What is that vertical stainless steel shaft with the gauge on top. It is located to the left of your 15C25 connected by a nipple with the blue hose going into it that is coming from your paint heater? What is it and the manufacturing model number.

chris

try schweitzer and crossom for kremlin.
they are in horsham Pa.
scspray.com

herb johnson

no need for a two stage compressor, second stage only raises the pressure rating of the compressor, so just a thought more pressure less cfm , less pressure more cfm so if you can find a deal on a single stage you are much better off, their is nothing in your shop that needs more than 100psi, in fact if you want to save the life on your compressor turn down the pressure switch and your machine will cycle much less and last longer.

as far as pumps, i have moved away from kremlin, parts too expensive and now their are many good systems to choice from, binks, cat, graco etc, i have had them the work just fine, but not worth the premium they get, when it comes down to it, i get a good finish and my spare parts cost is less but everyone has their own opinion.

be sure you put a regulator near the outlet of your compressor, set it at 90psi and don't skimp on the airline size that you use, ie spiral hoses and 1/4 inch air lines that is where you lose a lot of air pressure

also be sure to put a particulate filter afer the decissicant dryer because the dust from the beads can and does go downstream towards the gun

good luck

herb j

Mike

Member

Thanks Herb, all good info!

Bruce

Member

Hello I use a mixer water control valve to flush 80 deg water (variable temp) and connect to the blue valve via the pump filter. I then easily flush the filter, heater and lines with the gun removed into a 5 gal pail. You separately flush the pump using the pump itself.
I use a Ashcroft 101175 pressure gauge diaphragm kit 1000psi 2 1/4". The diaphragm prevents paint from ruining the gauge
The Kremlin is a single pass heater 110v

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Mike

Member

Bruce, I'm guessing you have your heater hooked up so that you can bypass it or use it when needed. Is that right?

Bruce

Member

No bypass as I use it all the time, easy to bypass as required

Mike

Member

Bruce, I noticed that there are two different one past fluid heaters. One being 115v and the other 230v. What is the difference besides voltage? I also noticed that you have the 115v.

By the way thank you so much for taking such excellent pictures and displaying them. They will really help when I make my installation. You got a really, really spotless set up!!!

Bruce

Member

Mike I choose the 110v version in case I need to spray away from the shop

Mike

Member

Bruce, what manufacture and the product of water based lacquer do you like?

Bruce

Member

I use a WB Sherwin Williams Kem Aqua plus pigmented lacquer. Can be tinted most colours

Mike

Member

Bruce, thanks for that info.

Bruce, you have two filters to the left and right of your Devilbliss CT-30. What are they? And may I ask you for another picture of your complete set up so that I can follow the hoses coming out of the compressor and finishing at the gun. I don't want to ask too much but I hope this is possible. Just want to make sure when I order everything this coming week it's all done properly from filters, hoses and others. Thank you!

Bruce

Member

I installed a 1/2" filter/separater on the inlet and outlet of air dryer. You probably can get away with using just one on the inlet

Bruce

Member

Correction filter/seperater regulator

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Adam

I would seriously consider the slightly bigger 5 hp 80 gallon vertical 220v.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-80-Gal-3-Cylinder-Single-Stage-Electric
-Air-Compressor-C801H/203187346

We ran this compressor in the small shop for 10 years. If you read the cfm and have a bit of experience you will realize how quickly a hi transfer gun will drain the tank. If you are spraying a kitchen its often necessary to give the compressor a rest when spraying lots of cabinets. The compressor would get really hot.

80 gallons is not that much tank.
60 is way smaller.

Mike

Member

Adam, Thank you for your input! I believe I'm sold on the Home Depot Husky. I looked at it yesterday at Home Depot and I can see what Bruce was talking about as far as heat dissipation. It has three separate pumps spread out to dissipate heat. I'll probably will be picking it up this week along with the ordering of the Kremlin EOS 15C25. I just decided I'm going to use the 50 foot of copper pipe from the compressor outlet to the Kremlin.
Thanks again!

Mike

Member

Bruce, what's your opinion of this filter: https://www.intlairtool.com/filter-regulator-lubricators-frls/aro-piggyback-filter
-regulator-units/

Thank you!

Bruce

Member

Mike I was unable to see the item but one thing you don't want is a lubricator. You want clean dry air for the Kremlin and spraying. I used large bore 1/2" filter/regulator.

Mike

Member

Breuce, disregard that previous link there is something wrong with it. Just Google this and let me know what you think?
ARO P39344-610 Filter-Regulator (Piggyback) | 1/2'' NPT | 172 CFM

Bruce

Member

Yes Mike that is the one, around $60 to $70 on eBay.

Mike

Member

I want to install a regulator about 1 foot from the compressor. As you know I'm going to be hooking the Kremlin to it and of course an air gun. There's two different regulators. One is non-relieving and the other is relieving. I don't know the difference which one should I get?

Mike

Member

Well, I pulled the trigger.

Kremlin EOS 15C25 wall mount with pump outlet filter. 668-140-001
06 & 09 fluid tips.
One pass heater. 056-151-110
DeVilbiss CT30.
ARO 2000 series 3/4 regulator. To be installed roughly one foot from compressor.
Quantity 2: ARO P39344-610 filter regulator piggyback 1/2’’ NPT 172 CFM
Husky 80 gallon air compressor.
50’ schedule 40 PVC with brass ball valves for drains.

I plan on installing 50 feet or more of cool down pipe between the compressor and the first piggyback filter regulator. I'm going to buy a hand truck and amount 3/4 inch plywood to the back and base of the hand truck. On the back of the hand truck I'll set up the Kremlin rig and for the base of the hand truck a place for 1 gallon and 5 gallon buckets.

Thank you group for all your help and pointing me in the proper direction. Hopefully now I'll be able to spray perfect finishes without looking. hehe!

Jared Emery

A hint on the CT30 dessicant filter: it's got an indicator that turns from green to yellow after it decides it's full of water. You can take the dessicant bag out and bake it in a low temp oven for a few hours to dry it out. Better than buying their expensive refill kits.

Mike

Member

Jared Emery, I love it. I was going to buy an extra bag along with a few other things like a spray gun rebuilding kit but I thought I would wait a while before I make those purchases. It's nice to know I can dry the bag out in my oven. Great group here! Thank you!

herb j

just wanted to add something, under no circumstances should you use pvc pipe, although I know I will get a lot of push back here, it is not allowed by osha, the other reason is it will soften in the pressence of compressed air oil vapors, yeah I know it says it will take the air pressure etc and I know most will say I have never had a problem but let me tell it pvc used on airlines will shatter like glass, causes a very loud boom, so just my two cents.......know of a shop who got sued for having it when a worker was injured when it popped., found this quick info, but other stuff is also out there

good luck
herb j

Plastic pipe used for compressed air service must be designed for such service by the manufacturer. Examples of such pipe include high-density polyethylene (HDPE) and Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene (ABS). Compressed air piping systems that use plastic pipe must also be “project speci c” – i.e., suited for a particular application or project – and installed by a competent person.
Polyvinyl chloride (PVC) pipe must not be used in compressed air systems unless it is buried or encased.

Mike

Member

herb j, thanks for your concerns and point well taken. The PVC is just temporary for about a year or so and after that I'll replace it with something better when I have time. For right now I was just trying to save some money because I spent so much and of course I'm going to want to get some more tips, a gun rebuilding kit and so on. I'm going to readjust the pressure so that it only builds to 100psi. No need for 150psi. Thanks again for checking in!

Mike

Member

To all members in this thread please reply back to this. Yesterday my 80 gallon Home Depot, Husky air compressor motor burned up within 30 seconds of starting. Yes the wire was done by a qualified electrician. Without going into detail about it I would like to know from everyone what exact compressor they are presently using for their Kremlin? (I'll be using Kremlin 15C25 with one pass fluid heater) After the incident yesterday I spoke to a qualified air compressor dealer who would like to see me with a Gardner Denver but he only stocks 60 gallons ones. I'm not sure if 60 gallons is enough because before I spray each piece I like to airgun the product a little bit just before spraying. Please reply back and let me know what you are using and if you think a 60 gallon would do it. The Gardner Denver 60 gallons that I'm thinking about getting is not two stage. Thank you group!

Herb Johnson

Why panic and buy a different compressor maybe u just got a bad one. You can run ur pump system off of a 3hp compressor non of the aaa units use that much air

Slow down you don’t need to rethink everything , ur going down the right road! My two cents replace ur pvc with 3/8 I’d air hose with full flow quick disconnects it will be much safer down the road and ur system will work just fine

Mike

Member

Herb Johnson, thanks for your reply. I'm thinking about going to Lowes tomorrow and Just picking up this one: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-60-Gallon-Electric-Vertical-Air-Compressor/3370356

Yes I did panic yesterday especially when I asked everyone to reply.

Mike

Member

Herb Johnson, I took your device today and went to Home Depot and bought another Husky 80gal air compressor today. Success! This one works fine. I ran it about 10 minutes and check the motor and it was cool as a cucumber.

Adam

Mike,

Good news on the compressor. Make sure you follow the directions on changing the oil. I would take another deep breath and reconsider the pvc. There is a reason why so many people on ww warn about the dangers. You will have 120psi in a tube that is usually tested by plumbers at 10psi. If it holds 6 psi overnight its good for drain pipes in a house.

In my personal experience, if it goes on the wall temporarily it will remain in service until it either breaks or we move shops.

No pvc. Buy anything else. Lengths of black iron pipe, copper, or pex plastic. You could go to homie dopie and buy pex and sharkbite fittings if you can't borrow or own a pex tool. 3/4" is the go. id is what matters.

Mike

Member

Well group everything came in today. I just have a couple questions about the pump and what these outlets are for and a black hose on the gauge housing? Here's three pictures with a pointer showing what I'm talking about. One looks like a bleeder valve but I don't know what it's for or how to work it. The other one looks like a breathing port but I'm not sure if anything connects to that either. On the bottom left corner of the gauge housing there is a black tubing. What is that for? Please let me know what they are because I cannot find any literature about them at all. Thank you!

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Mike

Member

Adam, thanks for the good information. I will definitely keep an eye on the oil and in a few months or so I'll change to PVC over to something a lot safer. Thanks again!

Bruce

Member

Hello Mike the fitting is your air inlet to the pump (air motor), hookup air to the remote regulator and run the 3/8" hose(included) from there to the air inlet fitting at the pump (air motor)

The other fitting is used to drain seal lubricating oil from the reservoir . You will occasionally want to drain and refill the reservoir. DO NOT run the pump without having oil in the reservoir

Mike

Member

Bruce, thank you for that. I'm glad you mentioned oil reservoir. No I did not start it yet and I'm not going to start it until I know for sure everything is done right. Kremlin does not send any directions but only CDs and two of them are broken. I called Kremlin tech support and Kyle email me the directions but they are just pictures without any written instructions. Very weird considering the price of these units. Anyway I'm going to call Kremlin right now and ask about the oil in the reservoir. It's funny I un-screwed the reservoir screw and nothing came out. Glad to see you back! I'll send pictures later on today of the unit hooked up with my makeshift handtruck.

Bruce

Member

Hello Mike I will email my file on the Kremlin pump, they ship it dry and you add the Kremlin oil after, I'm sure they must have shipped some with your order. I have a ton of parts for the 15C25 ie pump seals and Kremlin Xcite rebuild kits

Mike

Member

Well group I took your advice and everything is hooked up but not running yet. I'll go through all the pictures directions and maybe a few more questions with you guys before I start it up. But anyway I feel very confident I hooked everything up properly and even kept the lowest id air pipe size no smaller then 3/8'' right to the air inlet at the Kremlin. Here's some pictures for ya.

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Mike

Member

Kremlin EOS 15C25

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Mike

Member

Kremlin EOS 15C25

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Bruce

Member

Hello Mike it looks like Xmas came early :-)
congratulations
Like the other gentleman suggested replace the air PVC piping as soon as possible and add ball valve isolation valves on the inlet and outlet of the air dryer.
Mine are closed when not in use to extend the desiccant life.

Bruce

Member

Also if you slide out the plastic window on the pump you will see the oil reservoir for shaft and seal lubrication. Fill to 1/8" from the top and monitor the level

Bruce

Member

Add a easy access compressor tank drain and drain daily

Mike

Member

Bruce, they are some nice presents I bought for myself. A lot of money spent but I know it's well worth it. In a short period of time I'll swab out the PVC. Yes I filled the oil reservoir up today and I understand what to look for now.

I'm not sure what wire is the hot wire in this picture. These are the wires for the paint heater. Can you tell me which wire is the hot wire? The green wire with the yellow stripe I'm sure it is the ground. The blue and brown wire I'm just not sure which one is the hot.

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Mike

Member

Bruce, I didn't put an easy access drain on the compressor. Look to the left of the compressor and you will see a 1/4'' copper pipe with the white PVC pipe and a valve at the top. Works very well.

Bruce

Member

Green is ground
Blue is neutral
Brown is hot

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