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Spraying Waterbased Finish

9/14/18       
howard

Website: http://woodcontours.net

I have traditionally sprayed the various lacquers in solvent based. Can't deal with the fumes and the disposal issues anymore. I would appreciate all recommendations on what works best for you. I have a good technique for the solvent stuff, is the technique much different in WB? Would you mind telling me what to look out for when spraying the WB finishes. THanks

9/15/18       #3: Spraying Waterbased Finish ...
rich c.

The knowledge base tab in the upper right corner would be a good place to start. Shops have been converting for 30 years. I've been retired for a while now, but I sure read a lot about Target Coatings on here.

9/15/18       #4: Spraying Waterbased Finish ...
Nick

The 4 most frustrating/different things about WBs are grain raise, sandbility (seal coat powdering up, although l hear good things on some new products l have yet to try), micro bubbles and durability. I've gone back to using solvent base coats to beat the first 2 and using low pressure delivery systems (gravity guns, pressure pots& diaphragm pumps) to beat back #3, l'm still searching for the answer to # 4...it's probably out there but since l live 300 miles from a major metro area my access to the latest and greatest is not good.

9/16/18       #5: Spraying Waterbased Finish ...
mastercabman Member

I took a class on WB finishing
Learned a lot
Here is a few things that need to be addressed
#1 most of us will sand our project with 150/180 sand paper when using solvent based
Use 220
#2 strain your material
Lots of little boogers that doesn't dissolve very easy
#3 give more drying time
WB takes longer to dry and cure
#4 use the right equipment/set up
Talk with your supplier about what to use and how to set it up
I use MLC and use CA technology
They work very close with each other
I have a chart that shows how to set up/use what size nozzle/pressure depending on what type of sprayer you are using and what product
It's a learning curve and a little more finicky
As far as durability,I don't know much about it
I have not use WB that much

9/16/18       #6: Spraying Waterbased Finish ...
mastercabman Member

I tried to post pictures of the charts but can't post them because files are too big
I don't know how to fix it

9/16/18       #7: Spraying Waterbased Finish ...
Adam

I started with wb in 2000. Every year things got better and better.

Just like any other product there is a learning curve. Many products have been around that solved all of Nick's problems for well over 10 years.

The 2 major things to keep in mind with waterborne are temp & humidity. Keeping cans at 75 degrees in the winter helps. Not spraying on rainy days helps.

Durability has been a nonissue since 2000 unless you are talking versus 2k urethane. The good catalyzed wb came out around 2007. Then it wasn't an issue for things like countertops.

People who put down waterborne this decade are either uninformed or not willing to put in the time & effort to learn a new product. This would be the same case when switching spray systems, but most people eventually do that as well.

You don't wake up buy an air assisted rig and spray a new to you solvent coating perfectly.

Starting my career learning the wb was one of my best decisions. I do spray solvent when necessary. But that is because a customer demands it, or 2K urethane is the only product that will work.

9/17/18       #8: Spraying Waterbased Finish ...
The Staff at WOODWEB Member

Mastercabman - if you can send me the charts or a link to them via email, I'll see if I can get them added here. Send to webmaster@woodweb.com.

9/17/18       #9: Spraying Waterbased Finish ...
CWWOODWORKING

Adam, which WB you use?

And 75 in the winter?!!! I would be sweating my b@lls off.

In my area, WB has been nothing but a hassle for me. I really wish it wasn’t that way.

But I can’t afford 15$ more per gallon or my heating bill to keep it 75.

All for a product that is not as good as the cheaper one.

This is an honest question. How much more impact does a precat have over a, let’s say a target precat?

I use zero thinner for my clear precat. Zero goes to recycle. I soak the cap in thinner and leave the laquer in the pressure cup. Never clean it. Replace hoses 6 months

9/19/18       #10: Spraying Waterbased Finish ...
Adam

I wrote keep the cans at 75 degrees. Not the shop space. I do it with my solvent stuff as well. It maintains the correct viscosity so you can use the products with zero reducer.

I primarily use MLC products. Our plywood & MLC dist are the same company. They have very good tech support. Their products are as good overall as any other brand. I do use Target's products from time to time.

Impact. I don't know if you mean on a global basis or personal. My first concern is my guys and I. Our impact in the environment would be so small, driving the vans around would contribute more pollution.

In our neck of the woods solvent CV is the mainstay. The smell the next day after spraying the stuff is enough reason not to us it. If you can smell it then you are inhaling it. The headaches I get from that stuff means its affecting your nervous system big time.

The personal health impact of waterbornes is orders of magnitude lower.

I would sacrifice 5% easier to spray, 5% faster dry times, and even with regards to CV (2 coats vs 3 coats) more labor to lower the health issues.

You don't need a solvent legal spray booth to use wb.

An extra $15 a gallon is insignificant in our projects.

9/20/18       #11: Spraying Waterbased Finish ...
DannyB Member

"The personal health impact of waterbornes is orders of magnitude lower."

This depends entirely on what you are spraying.

Moving from a solvent based CV to a water based 2k urethane, for example, is likely *much* worse for personal health (and you will not be able to smell it, since by the time you can smell it, you are in a very very bad place).

There is simply no magic in chemistry here, and we do ourselves no favors by not understanding some of the science behind all this (IE claims that one or the other are better or equal are otherwise mostly meaningless).

There are plenty of waterbased finishes that are *really bad* for people, there are plenty of solvent based finishes that are *really good* for people.

(Ditto for the environment).

Personally, I'll go water based when iso-free 2k urethanes are more widely available.
Unfortunately, they are trying to ban NMP, which is going to make that a lot harder.

9/22/18       #12: Spraying Waterbased Finish ...
Adam

Danny,

Not trying to a pick a fight.

I take it you use solvent 2k urethane. It is the nastiest goop available. The lower iso 2k have been available for years. Mostly used in the cabinet industry where our durability and toughness requirements are far lower than aircraft and boats.

They do have 2k waterborne. It is definitely not a green product. How ever it is iso free and does not have the nasty reducers required for solvent 2k.

I have decades of experience with all of these products. The only one I haven't used is polyester. I became sensitized to polyester resin when building a large sailboat. 15 years later my goatee itches when I fiberglass something.

Regardless when you look at our industry as a whole, 2k has a small share. Waterborne laquers and catalyzed crosslinking can give the same or exceed the results of comparable solvent products.

I would leave the industry if I had to spray and smell cv everyday.

9/22/18       #13: Spraying Waterbased Finish ...
DannyB Member

Hey Adam,
I'm always happy to a reasonable discussion. I'm not a zealot of any kind, and always am trying to become incrementally less ignorant :)

I've used both solvent and waterborne 2k urethanes for cabinets. I actually spray a *ton* of different stuff, CV included. My job affords me the ability to try a lot of things without having to worry about continuous production.

The number of "real" 2k urethane that is iso-free ones is *very* small AFAIK.

(I'll define "real" here as it is actually performing the reaction and not just pre-reacted urethane dissolved in something carried by water).

I have some friends in the finishing formulation world that i complain to :)

Dow came up with a reasonable iso-free formulation in 2015, and mohawk produced a version of it (but then discontinued it, AFAICT). That formulation was 100% comparable in physical properties to traditional isocyanate versions (see http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_0933/0901b80380933b25.pdf?f
ilepath=coatings/pdfs/noreg/884-00793.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc)

saylerlack also just introduced a not-isu PU (https://www.sayerlack.com/not-iso-pu-new-isocyanate-free-polyurethane-coating-sys
tem/)

Past that, i'm not aware of any real 2k urethanes that are iso-free.

Chemcraft is not.
MLCampbell's polarion (solvent) is not.
Nor is Aguatana (water based).
etc

I'd love to hear about the ones you are thinking of!

AFAIK, chemically, it is hard to create iso-free ones and still sanely control pot-life/dry time.

I do agree that 2k has a small share, mainly because CV is much cheaper to produce and works fine for what the cabinet industry need.

But when i look at physical film properties of most waterbased CV, even catalyzed, they are ... usually, "not great", compared to the acid-catalyzed solvent CV.

(I try to do this by science rather than what people think, but i'm totally open to other objective methods)

Now, that doesn't mean they aren't "good enough", because everyone's definition of "good enough" varies.

But i'd also love to be pointed at some you think are great (I've looked at mlc, chemcraft, target, general finishes, etc)

One of the nicer ones i saw was GF's water-based post-cat conversion varnish.
Unfortunately, it is *also* iso-cyanate catalyzed :(

9/23/18       #14: Spraying Waterbased Finish ...
mauricio poli Member

The WB technology is the future of our professional life. Everybody who is on Wood Web needs to starting studying how, in the future, changing solvent based materials to WB materials.

9/23/18       #15: Spraying Waterbased Finish ...
Adam

Mohawk's Guide has their iso free 2k poly on page 8.

There are other's. 2k poly has been big in Europe. They also did the first formaldehyde free cv's.

I used the MLC waterborne 2k Aguatana back in 2007. I was in a big rush to finish a beautiful qtr sawn white oak island counter top. I hate grain filler of any kind.

1 coat amber transtinted Sealcoat. (4) coats 1st day of the 2k wb. Block sanded every other coat. 2nd day (2) more coats of 2k wb.

I let it cure for on the 3rd day then buffed it on the 4th day.

Its still perfect after 10 years. I saw it last year. Its the island counter top in a well used kitchen. The customer is a good friend of mine.

As I've mentioned the MLC Aqualente products have treated me well. No real problems in the 15 or so years they've been available. I've never had one problem with an of the Target products. The GF products are really good.

I've tried 6 or so brands over the years. MLC is the best combo of availablity, cost, and tech support for us in our location.

Every shop I know in or part of CT use MLC for all finishing products.

Mohawk Guide

9/26/18       #16: Spraying Waterbased Finish ...
Gary Member

I spray on a daily bases about 20 gallons of Sherwin Williams Sayerlack Water base. I have an automated spray line and 2 spray booths.

We have zero issues with the quality of finish.

Water base does raise the grain, I do a sealer coat then 2 top coats with a scuff in between each coat with 320grt.

we put sprayed product directly in front of fans, and are able to scuff and re coat in about 20 minutes.

Sayerlack is 1 of the nicest and easiest finishes I've used in the 25 years of my finishing career.


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9/26/18       #17: Spraying Waterbased Finish ...
Puzzleman Member

Hello Gary.

Does the automated spray line do the boards in the pictures?
Does is spray then sides and ends of the boards?

Am thinking about doing an automated line and I need a system that can do the sides as well.

10/3/18       #18: Spraying Waterbased Finish ...
Gary Member

Yes it does the ends and edges just have to have the guns in the right position

11/2/18       #19: Spraying Waterbased Finish ...
RJ Spomer

I am looking for a WB product that will give me the solvent base look. I have been spraying MLC products for 15 plus years Krystal, Duravar, Magnamax and now Klearvar. All are in a satin sheen. The problem I have had is all the WB look cloudy. Magnamax H20, Agualente plus and now General Finishes Endro. I have sprayed these with the 3M acurospray gun 1.3 tip. Put down as directed 4 to 6mil coat or per manufacturer. I have attached the MLC klearvar vs Augulente plus comparisons. The top half is Klearvar the bottom Augalente. The cherry turned brown the walnut burls and the mahogany are cloudy. The white oak turn green.

temp that day was in the 70's mid humidy. Sprayed in a spray booth.

Any Ideas on a product that may give me the clear solvent look?

Thanks


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