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Adhesion problem Kem Aqua Plus

10/24/19       
Craig Member

Hi folks,

So I am having some adhesion issues on some stain samples and wondering if anyone has some suggestion as my rep is having difficulties coming up with a solution. The issue is the Kem Aqua Plus sealer is not adhering to the Sherwood BAC wiping stain which I'm told it should do.

My Process:
Shop Temp: 19-21deg C (66-70 F)
Humidity: in shop not sure - outside levels for the week 60-75%

Wood is maple veneered and solid
-both sanded 120 grit 150 grit

sample 1 (left in picture)
Sherwood BAC wiping stain applied by wiping, allowed to sit for 4-5 mins before stain wiped off with fresh cotton rag.

Sample 2 (right in picture)
Mohawk dye concentrate (NGR) applied
Same Sherwood BAC wiping stain applied by wiping, allowed to sit for 4-5 mins before stain wiped off with fresh cotton rag. (same as other sample)

Both samples left to dry for 3hrs to allow solvent to evaporate

Seal Coat both samples
Kem Aqua Plus sealer
-wet coat sprayed using HVLP not sure on wet mil

35 mins dry time
-scuff sanded 320

2 top coats Kem Aqua plus dull rub
scuff sanded between coats 400 grit

I can us my finger nail to easily scrape the finish down to the stain without issue and on sample 2 you can see the tape lifted the sealer as well.

It been 72hrs and I can still remove the finish with my finger nail. I have used this same process with the Mohawk line of solvent stains and WB pre-cat lacquer (as they call it) with no issues. Great adhesion you can only mar the surface if you drag a screw driver across and that is what I was expecting to see with the Kem Aqua Plus Line

I would like to keep it as much of a WB process as possible (I understand the wiping stain is not) and don't want to have to resort to a shellac between the stain and top coat.

Any thoughts on what the issue may be?


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10/24/19       #2: Adhesion problem Kem Aqua Plus ...
Bob Niemeyer

Whats the pigment load in the stain? How clean are you wiping it off?
Why "try" to make it work. Plenty of other coating companies with very nice water systems out there that will blow away that SW system.
What are you finishing? What do you need in finish system performance? How large is the job?
The reason I ask is any good coatings Dist just loves taking business away from
SW.

10/24/19       #3: Adhesion problem Kem Aqua Plus ...
Jonathan Mahnken

Mohawk stains dry pretty fast, probably why no issues there.Use waterbased stain. Likely no need to pre dye and you will be able to recoat way quicker than 72 hours

10/24/19       #4: Adhesion problem Kem Aqua Plus ...
John Member

You said you used Seal Coat after allowing the BAC to dry for 3 hours. Seal Coat is shellac, so I'm confused why you later said you don't want to use shellac between the stain and KA+. You already are, and there's nothing wrong with that. I've used that same process many times w/o problems, though with a different WB topcoat. However, I think you need to let the BAC dry a lot longer than 3 hours, more like at least 8 hours, and also let the Seal Coat dry for at least 4 hours before applying the KA+.

You can usually apply WB topcoats over most oil and solvent based stains w/o bonding problems as long as you allow them to completely dry. For some OB stains that can mean 3 or 4 days.

John

10/24/19       #5: Adhesion problem Kem Aqua Plus ...
Adam

John is correct in his approx dry times.

We have used MLC Woodsong solvent stains for a long long time. Our dry times would typically be overnight for the solvent stain. If we had to use an oil based Minwax type stain. We would allow it to dry overnight then barrier coat it with Sealcoat shellac. Wait until the end of the day(4-6hrs) then topcoat with a web.

The wb stains are so good these days, that you should’ve able to find one that suits your requirements.

A good rule of thumb for using somewhat incompatible products(oil/wb/solvent) together is the smell test. If you can smell solvent then it’s still off gassing, which will affect bonding.

10/25/19       #6: Adhesion problem Kem Aqua Plus ...
Craig Member

@Bob Niemeyer
The stain is what I would consider heavily pigment. I'm wiping it back until the clean rag is not removing any more stain and the stain appears to be evenly applied. The job is not large only a table with a matching built in cabinet for a clients office.
I'm sure other distributors would be more than happy to take business away as you say but I like the idea of having my coatings distributor around the corner from me and not having to have my coatings shipped to me which in the winter months is a problem with WB finishes.

@Jonathan Mahnken
I will ask my rep about getting waterbased stains and to why they didn't offer this in the first place as they know my finishing setup

@John
Perhaps I didn't word that properly I used a "seal coat" or sealer coat of Kem Aqua Plus WB Sealer (T65F550) not sealcoat the brand of shellac. The Kem Aqua+ sealer is what was specified in the paint docs

I have done up some more samples and I will let these sit over night as suggested to see if that solves my problem. Thank you for the replies!

A second question that comes to mind is what is the grain raise like on waterbased stains and how do you prep from that?

10/25/19       #7: Adhesion problem Kem Aqua Plus ...
rich c.

How old is the Seal Coat? Shellac will dry slower the older it gets. Finally gets to the point where it has to be thrown away.

10/25/19       #8: Adhesion problem Kem Aqua Plus ...
Adam

3hrs is not enough drying time to go from a solvent stain to a wb sealer or topcoat. Start of the day, end of the day. Not before lunchtime. 6hrs should be adequate.


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