|Home » Forums Ľ Professional Finishing Ľ Message||Login|
You are not logged in. Consider these WOODWEB Member advantages:
problem with 2k AAA pump, time to replace?7/24
Looking for some advice here. I am one man shop and value efficient workflow.
I think it may be time to change my paint equipment. I have a CA Technologies Catalyser 2k pump which I have used for the last 8 years to spray CV clear and opaque. It has needed modification from the beginning to properly mix paint. Anyway we've used it to spray many jobs and when it works, it works great! I love being able to spray from 5g pail.
However, when it starts under catalyzing it is very difficult to identify root cause or problems. Sometimes it is in the catalyst pump not pumping(pump rod seals), sometimes the pressure relief/diverter valves in the quad block allow high pressure material to return to catalyst storage tank instead being injected into pressure stream to gun, sometime the shuttle valve and trip rod assembly leaks fluid (externally).
I am not sure if I should identify certain wear components and regularly replace (before pump fails). Perhaps i need to keep a large inventory of spare parts on hand or a second "rebuilt" unit ready to put into service when problems arise.
At any rate, I am now considering other options, like Kremlin's Cyclomix Micro - a electronic metering 2k pump setup, which is MUCH more expensive, but appears to be dummy proof.
What do you guys use for paint equipment to spray CV 2k materials?
I use a graco promix 2KE to spray 2k urethane with a kremlin 10-14 and graco pump for catalyst.
if you are spraying CV then the potlife should be long enough where you don't need an electronic mix system. my 2k urethane from ilva has a 2 hr potlife.
Hi Chris, I am interested in this promix system with electronic dosing. I am not interested in hot potting. How much appx did you pay for the setup? Any regrets?
Also Chris, do you have the mechanical or electronic dosing version (variable ratio). I think that is what I would want.
I have the electronic one which is very easy to use. Can be complicated but once set up you donít have to change anything.
the promix 2ke and cyclomix micro cost about the same.
If you read the cyclomix micro manual, they consider a lot of stuff to be wear parts with 1 year life, including parts that cost about 2k.
(the rest are between 50-300 bucks)
So far Iíve spent no money on my promix.The only issues have been my fault by not cleaning it well enough even though it has a flush cycle.The metering gears are very close tolerance and any junk can cause problems.
To be fair, it may just be Kremlin being Kremlin.
Here's the cyclomix micro manual, check out page 32 (and look up the cost of the parts)
Do I need catalyst flush, or okay to leave CV acid in it all year?
I don't spray much volume (one man shop), I wonder if the wear items listed on that page (I downloaded the pg32) would degrade due to volume used or time exposed to the acid. It's a fairly long list!
I was reading on the metered promix that if one of the pumps sucks up air it may not trip the pump as the meter wheels would still turn. This is a bit concerning, is this your experience?
Any experience with Wagner's 2k products? Should I consider something there (im going for cheapest option)
I was thinking of re-using the base and catalyst pump that comes with my CATech 2k manual pump (I would need a separate air motor for the catalyst pump).
Finally, what do you think about the manual vs metered promix. I didn't realize with the manual it still allows variable ratios and tracks the piston position vs material meter wheel.
Sorry Iíve never sprayed CV through mine.only2 K urethane.
I don't understand the cost versus benefit of spraying only C.V. through a metering rig. If your a one man shop and spray less than 20 gallons a week of material why on earth would you benefit from the extra cost of a metering system if your not spraying material with a very short potlife. Your application just calls for a regular AAA rig and mix only the material you are going to spray at that moment and then properly flush and shut down your equip. until the next use. Sure.. some occasional 2K... mix what you need.. shoot it out and flush/clean properly....If your going to start over with a new rig just go regular AAA of your choice.
Good morning Shane, thanks for your question. Yes you are correct I would spray less than 20 g / week. So the cost-benefit is definitely questionable (I don't want to spend over 25k, which I'm being quoted double that for Cyclomix Micro PH complete, plus install). I don't want to hot pot and currently have a mechanical 2k pump (Catalyzer from CAT) where I can spray from 5g pail with agitator and heat (if neccessary). I love the benefits of this system vs hot pot (manual mix batches), however after various issues over the last 8 years with the system I would like to upgrade to a dummy proof setup.
Finishing is my main bottleneck with production and is therefore my focus on improving workflow. I currently have too small of a finishing room (with booth), so I have to do multiple sprays per kitchen (can only fit two portable door racks inside), and cannot spray trims with any racks in booth. I am looking at re-configuring the shop to address this - by tripling the finish room (also with larger entry doors vs current 37" wide which is difficult to get doors in and out on the rack). My target scenario is to be able to finish two entire kitchens within the finish room without having to remove any material from the room. I do all my sanding in the booth as well.
My shop is only 1600sqft, including vertical panel saw, edgebander, and dbl line boring etc, bathroom and finish room (with booth).
Any suggestions would be great. I cannot outsource finishing in my area of atlantic Canada.
I'm looking at this auction which closed several months ago for only 14k USD and was in Canada. What a shame I missed it!
I see not reason not to just use a kremlin 10:1 or 15:1 wall mounted pump with 5 gallon siphon tube for your setup. In that small of a booth area there is no reason not to mix one gallon batches and do your spray out. you will learn how much material is needed to get one setup done rather quickly. It shouldn't take more than a few minutes to catalyze and reduce a batch and keep shooting. This is coming from a person who manages over a dozen open face booths as well as a few automated finishing lines. We shoot well over hundreds of gallons a week and still only catalyze 2-3 gallons of CV, Sealer,Primer or poly at a time... We use poly/plastic throw away 5 gal bucket liners. This is done in a common mixing area between all finishers so they can recipe up grab the material and keep rolling. This gives us flexibility to change materials/jobs/colors at a moments notice. As a guy that has seen countless AAA rigs nothing will beat the longevity of a kremlin 10:1 or 15:1 pump... yes pay more up front and pay more for parts but the quality of the spraying and longevity far outweighs the others.... I have well over 25 pumps in service everyday and we have ran others.... When you run that many pumps 50-60 hours a week you start to see a real world scenario of just how good some of these are...
Thanks Shane! I used to do it that way 10 yrs ago with a pressure pot, but maybe I should reconsider it (and a good 1k pump like the 15-1 eos). I think having larger batches of doors and trims to spray at once would really help as well. You're right it doesn't take long to mix a batch.
How do they do a 1g batch? My mix disposable mix cups are only 2liter(1/2g).
We use 5 quart tubs that we buy from sherwin... EZmix.... so technically we say gallon or 2 gallon batches but we are really over per say by the time you add catalyst and reducer.... pour up 2 gallons of material... add required catalyst... reducers and retarders if necessary etc etc... if differs depending on the weather and material type... but essentially we try to focus on get coating laid down more so than having an exact science on how much material is mixed.... The 15:1 eos is an excellent setup... we really like the 15C25's..... they spray great and pump thousands of gallons of material before a throat seal/cartridge needs replacing.... they usually run about 2 years in a booth before I change the cartridge seal and piston seal.... If you have a serious flush regimen they will last a very long time in service. I had posted a very thorough video for proper pump flushing on here.
I would second what Shane said. I bought a Kremlin 30:1 pump and I just mix everything as needed. You will be thousands of dollars ahead and there is not much to go wrong with these pumps when they are maintained. You can buy the pump and gun and you will be closer to the $5k mark, you can take the other $10k or more and expand your paint area or preferably your shop if you have the space.
Well after spending the better part of my day working on the catalyzer CA Technologies pump I now have it running and probably good for another year! So I will keep it and think I've got all the quirks figured out on it.
Here's what I've learned today:
The catalyst pump would not produce if hold pressure on the up stroke. Discovered the seal was loose on shaft. I enlarged the u shaped spring sections inside seal and they now tightly fit shaft, minimal leaking now. Pump rod lower has almost zero chrome left after 1-2 years.
I will order replacements and extra spares to keep on hand for next rebuild. Expect that will be a couple thousand but other than that it seems to be a new pump! Sprayed a sample tonight and it cured nicely with no glossy sheen.
I will try to immediately do a teardown next time the pump starts tripping the out of balance safety , indicating off ratio. It has been doing that since first of the year but I have pushed it to the point of coating failure, shame on me!
So I guess I'll happily keep this 2k manual pump running for years to come (hopefully). As a backup I can always disconnect the catalyst side and spray through base pump with hot pot (manually mixed batches).
Thanks for the input guys! As the owner I have the luxury of picking the equipment I run. Tools got me into this business and I still enjoy tweaking and optimizing the workflow (and buying better tools). God bless, Nathan Barnard
Wanted to do a quick follow-up on the paint pump rebuild. I've been spraying two days now with it and having excellent results. It's surprising how quickly the paint cures and the sheen is flattened when correctly mixed!
The trip rod will go off balance still if the pump sits idle for five minutes, but doesn't affect paint operation. Pretty quick to reset and continue. I suspect the catalyst shaft needs to be re-chromed to have a better seel. Has anyone ever looked at resurfacing the pump rods? I have four now that can be redone instead of continuing to replace yearly or semi yearly.
i understand what you want to do but you would need to buy a new one to get the proper od and then you would then need to give that od to your plater so that the od would be in spec so that the rod would work with the oem packings. i would almost bet cat wouldn't give you the od of the rod over the phone. are you sure there is a small pressure worm on the ball seat that is causing the pump to shift?
Here is the used pump shafts from the past seven years. The leak is on the center portion of the shaft (there are three surfaces on the double shaft). Top has v packing with jamb but, bottom has a ball and seal center just a seal. I don't know what condition these shafts should be considered, are they extremely worn or just ready to be replaced, etc?
I have been quoted by a hard chrome machine shop $275 to grind and chrome one 6" section. I also sent them the link below to kremlin's process of triple playing and they quoted $875 each. The price of a new shaft is about $200 IIRC. I don't know the quality of CA Technologies process vs Kremlin vs 3rd party chrome plating.
As for precision diameter I don't think that is critical as the seals are spring "u" shaped and can adjust to diameter. What's more important I think is a very smooth surface. When etched like they are now, probably microscopically, it is hard for the nylon/teflon seals to work.
Hey Herb I forgot to respond to you. I have tried several of these different shafts when I was working on it a couple days ago. All had the same problem. I did take a couple of the lower pump rods apart to inspect the internal ball and seat and they looked pristine. A little tricky to get them back together (cat recommends not taking them apart).
Turned out it was the seal was quite loose on the shaft (it would almost fall off the shaft by gravity on the bench). After stretching the metal springs with a curved pick it was quite tight and the pump worked MUCH better. The trip guard mechanism is extremely precise so the smallest imbalance in the two pumps especially over time, will set it off. With the catalyst pump under 20psi air pressure the seals will hold now in both directions without shaft moving. I think Cliff at cat explained at 20psi on air motor the catalyst pump is producing 1000 psi liquid, anything over that it will push past the seals OR the spring pressure relief valves in the quad block.