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Bora Care causes glue adhesion issues??8/29
Earlier this year we came up with a policy to apply Bora Care termiticide to all of our plywood and hardwood that comes into our shop before we start working with it. Thing is, i notice for everything that has had the bora care applied to it, it seems to not allow the wood glue to penetrate it, it just kinda dries on the surface and you can peel it off like dry caulk in a matter of minutes. Has this ever happened to any of you? If so, how did you deal with it? Should i use a damp rag and wipe some of the dried up bora care that resides on the surface of the wood prior to applying glue? Or wood a good sanding with some 80 grit do the trick?
Not sure what prompted your company to start treating incoming materials in this manor. If this is even an accepted regional practice, maybe I am unaware. But I have never heard of anybody doing this so bear with me.
If your findings are that the Bora Care is indeed what is causing the adhesion problems.
My suggestion is to STOP using the Bora care. Find a better way to deal with whatever problem you were having, that does not contaminate your materials.
If you are having issues with sheet goods and kiln dried lumber coming in with wood boring insects it is time to find a new supplier.
Otherwise it sounds as if you may have been having issues in your building. If that is the case you need to hire a qualified exterminator, and get that remedied. It is probably also time to speak with an industry consultant with expertise in wood science, sawing/drying, and plant operation.
We started using this treatment as a preventative measure against termites infesting wood before it goes out to customers. Yes we do have both sub subterranean & dry-wood termites , we can not tent the place as the landlord wont allow us to (long story) and yes we do have pro exterminators come in and spray what they can where they can, but they have told me until i tent the place there is no sure way to kill all existing termites,,,,, so the best i can do is treat the wood as it comes in. Bora care is supposed to stop termites from using the wood as a food source. I have been told by the manufacturers of the product that it will not cause problems with paints, varnishes etc. Which is why i am trying to find out from other woodworkers if they had this problem.
Time to find a new building????
I agree with bob. STOP using a product that is causing problems.
It just sounds wrong that a landlord would prevent a tenant from protecting his business from such an issue. I know you said it is a "long story" but maybe it is time to find a new landlord, or buy your own building. (A side benefit: a building might be a good long-term investment as well.)
Until you solve the insect problem, your business, and livelihood, is obviously at risk. I wonder how much money you are spending (losing) on exterminators and Bora Care products. That can't be helping your bottom line. If word gets out to the public that your building is infested, your business might just drop to zero. Would you buy products with that type of risk?
Hey guys, while i appreciate all of your advice and input, remember, the first post i made was to find out if anyone had issues with bora care , i did not state that i knew with any certainty that i was having issues with it but to see if any other users had any problems with it and if so how they counteracted it. The reason why the landlord cant tent the place is because our building is connected to his own which totals a VERY big building which = big bucks to tent. I also would have bought my own building by now if i could have but for the size building i need that would be expensive here,,, once again we live in the caribbean,,, one of those '''paradises''' where you pay top dollar for just a carboard box! The exterminators were a once or twice deal , as i said before they admitted that their spraying was not going to do much. Bora care, while pricey, covers alot of square footage. I can treat over 25 sheets with just one gallon. It can also increase my bottom line,, think about it, what client wouldnt want to hear that their cabinets were treated with the best insecticide on the market, prior to being constructed? So back to my original question, has anyone out there used this product and got adhesion issues with it? Maybe its not the product, but the way i apply it?
not trying to disagree with you. i understand the building issues.
however, i don't know what type of cabinets you are selling. i would probably not want to know that kitchen cabinets, where i am storing food and dishes, contain a pesticide of some kind.
maybe the culture is different where you are and folks accept, or even prefer, poisonous chemicals in their cabinets. i don't know.
The Caribbean does have serious termite issues with any wood product. Practically all construction is masonry or metal - no wood will last if exposed.
I assume (big assumption) that most people will accept some degree of 'preventative measures' - toxicity - in their cabinets if that is the norm. But also a selling point that is a negative perhaps?
I think prevention is the first objective - Antonio needs to remove all termites from the premises so he does not contribute to the problem. That apparently is the crux of the problem, and until he moves, he will not be able to get a handle on it.
I would think that any buyer would prefer no Bora-care treated cabinets over treated ones.
The answer is, no, but I'll at least guess: Bora care is formulated for stick-built houses to treat the framing. Framing lumber is 12% to 15% MC. Borates are readily water soluble, and I assume that this is the way that Bora care migrates into wood. Your cabinet material is 5% to 7% MC, so there is not enough water present to allow the treatment to migrate away from the surface. Then you glue with titebond and voila, there is water! So, your Bora care residue permeates the glue and makes it ineffective.
Mark, thanks!!! much things are said with few words,,, i REALLY appreciate that!! very useful info. Not sure if you have used the 'bora care' product itself before but seems like you know the principle behind it, as you said, it is just borates mixed with glycol (same as in antifreeze?) supposedly the glycol makes the borate penetrate the wood deeper. thing is , when i first mix the bora care 1:1 with water , that batch goes on very well with little 'salt' left on the surface ,, but seems like when i let this diluted batch sit for a few days that the salt doesnt seem as soluble as when i first mix it, ,,, if that makes sense,,, so when i apply that 'leftover batch' to wood, that stuff leaves the most salt behind after it dries. So yeah i guess i should be behind the manufacturers as to what i can do about this... Thanks again,,,,,and actually am thinking about a migration ,,, but to canada if i can find a good hookup to setup my shop up there :)
Great answer mark. I might add here in Hawaii, it is common just to gas treat the finished product in the same manner you would your house. After your canibets are complete prior to delivery, you have the local pest control come by on Fri afternoon. They drop a big tarp over the job and gas it. It sits till Monday you install that day if you like.
BoraCare is put into the wood using water as the carrier. After application, the water moves to the surface where it is evaporated. This leaves a concentration of the chemical at the surface (like the ring left if you evaporate the water from a dish a salt water). Before gluing if you remove this outer surface by very light sanding, you will be in fine shape for a strong glue joint. However, if you sand and then the wood dries a bit, you will likely not be as good; so, sand just before gluing and remove the dust.
One question is if the BoraCare dust is safe to breath or do you need to take special precautions.
I wish my cabinet maker has done it.
Also, if there are termites in your cabinets, it is likely that they are in the framing of your structure as well as (OSB or plywood) wall or roof sheathing (seldom are these products treated for termites prior to installation) and other untreated wood, so you have more of problem than just cabinets.
There is another termite that does not require this water connection, but flies to water...this is found in the USA in FL, and along the Gulf Coasr sometimes, as it needs warmth and humidity.