Question
I am entertaining the idea of having a potential employee take a math test during the interview process. I am hoping that this will help weed out any problems caused by an employee not knowing decimals, fractions, or even the metric system. Have any employers out there developed some type of simple math test?
Forum Responses
(Business Forum)
From contributor D:
I've used the Wonderlic Personnel Test on the last few employees I hired. It gives me an idea of not just math skills but how fast they learn, etc. It's relatively inexpensive and easy to administer and score. I also use another personality test called the Predictive Index that helps me find the right person for the type of work I need. It costs a fair amount, but it's been worth it for me.
I spent a whole day once attempting to teach fractions to a 30 year old man.
Me: 7/16" is smaller than 4/8" or 1/2", but is it smaller than 14/32"?
Jo: No, it is larger than 14/32.
Me: Why?
Jo: Anything measured in 32nds of an inch is smaller than anything measured in 16ths of an inch.
Me: What?
Jo: It must be smaller - that’s why it is in 32nds of an inch. Larger stuff, like a sports field, is measured in yards. Rooms are measured in feet and cabinets are measured in inches. Stuff smaller than cabinets will be measured in 1/2 inches and small stuff like drill bits are measured in 16ths of an inch. Really small stuff is measured in 32nds of an inch.
At this point I gave him a metric measuring tape and started teaching him metric in dollars and cents. He lasted one month. The tape I gave him was never used and everything was off by 1/8 -1/2".
A simple test with a measuring tape and a few sections of wood should do the trick. Cut 5 sections of wood from 5 different species, all within 1/32. The test is to measure the five sections in standard and then in metric. Then name the 5 species of wood. If he gets 15/15, he wins a job. If he gets less than 15 but more than 12 and can work out the percentage and name 3 joints used in cabinetmaking, he redeems himself and wins the job. Oh, and if he passes a drug test.
Math is a strange animal. You can pose the same problem to 5 employees and end up getting the correct answer, although derived 5 different ways. The fact is, there are several different methods to calculate math problems. My kids can multiply numbers (i.e. 67x93) using one hand. Don't ask me - I didn't learn that way.
Bottom line: All you really need to know about a prospective employee is whether or not they have a strong desire to learn (of course, honesty, stability, reliability, etc. play a part, too). While they may flunk your math test initially, if the genuine desire is there, they will usually develop their own way/method to arrive where you want them to be.
Keep in mind that a lot of our most famous leaders and statesmen never had the equivalent of a high school education, yet they reached greatness.
What I thought was really funny was the look on his face a year and a half later when I, now working for his competitor, introduced myself in person. It was funny because I had gone on from that embarrassing moment to increase business by $2.5 million, or 300%, for the company I did join. What wasn't funny was that probably a good half a million had come from his customer base.
If the completed box is worthy of finishing, we save it for when we need a finisher and they will finish the box. If it gets past that, we donate the box to a charity. This certainly weeds out a lot of people. Only the ones we want get through. Often in our shop, a cabinetmaker is given a project to complete, start to finish. They will work on it solo with the exception of occasional help from an apprentice. They are responsible for making sure that all required materials are on hand and any materials needed can be ordered so that the project is completed in a timely fashion.
1. A man has two 2" boards that total 47 3/16". If he was to join the two planks together, how many cigarettes would he smoke before this job is done?
2. You and a friend plan to spend the weekend painting a 10" x 10" kitchen. The walls are 96" high with one 45" x 35" window and two doors, each 35" including the trim.
How many 6 packs of beer will it take to finish the job?
How many beers will your friend drink before stepping into the bucket of paint?
3 of the following - what do you do best?
a. play golf
b. goof off
c. lie
d. all of the above (play golf on sick days)
The testing thing helps, but I'm not sure how feasible this is for a small shop. I would mostly look at the resume - that is the best test. Look for people who are upbeat. They are more valuable than people who are downbeat. Before I tested for math ability, I would test for drugs. Alcohol is a drug, also.
Drug tests can be very expensive for a small shop, however, you can always ask them questions. Owner: "How many beers do you consume each week?". Applicant: "Umm... are we talkin' bottles or kegs?" Owner: "You're my kinda guy... when can you start ?"
The drug test can be as simple as asking "do you take drugs?" and then watching their reaction. Same for alcohol. I have hired and fired enough drunks/drug addicts over the years to know that they are a liability to your business.
As far as the upbeat versus downbeat thing goes, there are a lot of shades in between. This has been a valuable indicator to me.
If the guy isn't working out, get rid of him quick and move on to somebody who will.
Drug testing, checking references, credit check all help, but the desire to do woodworking is a must. One of the employee's responsibilities is to keep me out of trouble. Keeping mistakes down keeps me out of trouble.
My brother was on a high rise job where some coke-head did the same thing with a radio. Some poor guy turned it off, and being much smaller than the coke-head, he got to experience what it feels like to be hanging more than 40' up over the edge of the building. His decision to hang onto the guy for dear life was what saved him before help came. I guess the cokie didn't want to fly with him. There was no murder charge, and the cokie had the nerve to try to sue the company for unjustified firing.
If you aren't worried about drugs or booze, at least don't allow any radios. New workers that need help learning the trade are way better than druggies.
One well-known problem of employing intelligent people is that they tend to get bored and stop paying attention. The ideal person for any particular job is the one who has to work at a high proportion of their total ability. These are the people who are well-matched to their job, and are usually happier than those who are not stretched by their jobs.
An example might be to see if the person can use a jigsaw to follow some cut lines with reasonable accuracy. I'd be afraid to let someone use the serious equipment until I was sure they knew what they were doing. See if they can line up a drawer slide and screw it off.
Some people with high IQs might know how to read a tape, but they just don't have what it takes, no matter how much they try.
When I'm the new guy, I get nervous trying to show how well I can fit in. If not for some of my employers' people skills, I would have been fired on numerous first days. Think about the damage you can do to someone's belief in themselves if a fair and honest effort isn't given to evaluation! Even when terminating them, let them go easy. For example, "Honestly, I think your skills are not fitted for this type of work and I just do not want to see you get hurt."
One last thing. The worker who hid all his mistakes at the bottom of a pile… why did he feel the need to do that? If it took you until after he was fired to notice, what's the big deal? How many workers are throwing away their mistakes? I'm just a wood finishing business owner, but it sounds like they're afraid of coming to you for even minor mistakes. Maybe it was the way I read the response, but it almost sounds like a seasoned employee was fired based upon his salary. Hell, I think I'd hide things, too!
Lastly, do you think a test can detect honesty or integrity?
I read that some of you bring people into the shop to use your tools and machinery as a test. This is very dangerous. You know the person is not familiar with your shop, he/she is going to be on the edge and feeling the pressure. You have a nitroglycerin milkshake here. What happens if that person gets hurt? If he cuts a finger off, I guess he failed the test, but you are going to have some interesting conversations with interesting people soon after.
And as for checking court records… Man, are you hiring him or adopting him? Today it is very easy to get charges put against you. And I don't care who says what, blue collar workers and tradesmen are police magnets. Any honest police officer will tell you that they profile young black and Hispanic men and white tradesmen as having what they call "quality of life" problems. So should they be pulled over, they are going to get the book tossed at them. A traffic violation becomes resisting arrest and battery of a police officer in the blink of an eye. Punching a guy for feeling up a girlfriend becomes assault and battery. Knocking him out is attempted murder.
I would never even think of looking into somebody's past and making assumptions based on court records. Besides, I think it is against the law to pass an applicant up for a position based on criminal records. If not, it should be, as we as a society have to believe that prison is reforming inmates while they are there, or it is an institution that serves no purpose other than housing for bad people.
Hiring people is part of the risk we take. Let the applicant's starting salary reflect the risk factor.
These things and more are precisely what tests like the Tickle assess. However, as I previously said, I think these tests are overkill for most shops as a hiring tool.
You balk at criminal history? Even by liberal standards, the people you describe would never be employed by me. Sure, if I know someone well and am familiar with particular circumstances surrounding a past arrest charge/conviction... no problem. However, someone with multiple convictions, no matter how trivial the charge, would tell me that this person has a problem. Period. You must do business in a pretty rough area to so graciously dismiss this kind of behavior as simple typecasting. I could not do so.
I don't think a couple phone calls to former employers violates anyone. Most employers would be more than pleased to provide information to save someone else grief. Don't override that gut feeling - it's there for a reason.
If you're hiring for positions of skill in woodworking and the employee can't read the tape, there was failure on the hiring side. Trial periods of 30 days do not mean you have to keep them that long, or even try them out during that 30 day period at the normal pay rate.
Technically, you would also be in violation for giving a good reference. Why? Example: "Was John a great employee?" Employer: "Yes, he was fantastic." Next reference, the employer is asked the same question about another past employee. Response: "I can only verify employment dates." In comparison, this is obvious condemnation for the past employee who only gets the basic info. This is why it is not legal to give out anything more than the basic lawful info. So, be very careful. This stuff gets deep, but I must warn you that it is also the policy of most large corporations to not allow any company officer (this is usually President, VP, etc.) to issue a letter of recommendation.
I'm not sure what people I described that you would not hire. The guy that got pulled over or the guy that punched another guy for feeling up his girlfriend? Anyway, you hire who you will and take your risks accordingly. I'm a "give them a second chance" kind of guy.
I don't think recommending that others do the same as you is a good thing, as there are millions of good people who have found themselves on the wrong end of the stick with Johnny Lawman, quite by accident. Stepping on their fingers as they attempt to climb out of the hole is an all too common practice in this country.
You are incorrect about the legal parameters of questions employers can ask. On the application form, you can ask if they have ever been convicted of any felonies or spent time in prison. You cannot inquire about misdemeanors and a whole ton of other important topics that we all might think are innocent. With an applicant who has a disability, you cannot ask what duties they are capable of performing.
No, I am not incorrect about legal parameters. I worked in HR for a major corporation for many years. I was only trying to impart to you a few basic facts and concepts, as this subject is vast and differs (usually not that much) from state to state. I suggest you check your own state's D.O.L. for information. Most small to medium size shops do not have an HR deptartment. They usually only have an owner who has no real experience with labor laws except very basic ones that he/she has learned the hard way. Although many of you have probably skated by without this type of labor law knowledge, it would benefit you to delve deeper into the subject to keep you from possible legal hassles in the future.
Also… your statement about hiring someone that you know, even with convictions... That would be a slam dunk case of prejudice. Being from H.R., you should know that you just practiced discriminatory behavior. And the phrases "policing" and "getting rid of", although I believe I know your intent, raise questions to further legal problems, hypothetically. If you can't ask questions without always receiving positive answers, what good is that?
2.) The word termination means ended, stopped, over, etc. People associate the word with negative connotations if used in a certain context. Example: a) "John was terminated in February." b) "John terminated his employment with us in February." c) "John's employment with us was terminated in February." All three are different statements. Statement C is the most proper for a past employer to issue.
An application usually asks "Why did you leave your last job?" This allows the prospective employee to hang him/herself. It does not ask the employee if they were drunk on the job, fired for stealing, etc., though some employees will volunteer this information themselves.
Next, if I hire someone I know that has been previously charged with misdemeanors and don't hire another guy because he has been charged with something, this is not legal discrimination. If there was premeditated discrimination on my part in another case scenario (like race, religion, etc.), only I, the boss, the head honcho knows this. If the D.O.L. asks me why I didn't hire him, I'll have a hat full of other lawful reasons why I did not. If you work in a "right to work" state (if you don't know what this is, call your D.O.L.) you can fire someone for combing their hair wrong. However, this doesn't mean that they couldn't file and collect unemployment and/or even file a civil suit against you. I must emphasize again that laws vary by state.
Bottom line: this type of interaction between an employer, past employer, employee, or prospective employee, is a game. You just have to learn how to play. It only takes one well informed, disgruntled past or present employee to teach you how the game can be played. You want to learn the rules and be better at the game, so you don't lose. I can assure you, losing can be very costly to an employer in several ways (besides monetary).
I have had the benefit of attending seminars and classes that were taught by state and federal D.O.L. folks. If in the future you are not sure about any issue that may arise on this topic, check with legal counsel or your state D.O.L.
Comment from contributor Y:
I've encountered so many employers using personality/attitude tests like a safety valve against spending even a few minutes talking with a job applicant. If I want information about the job I must take the test. Personality tests are one of the biggest wastes of time and money. I've taken a lot of them.
I tailor my answers to fit the personality of the employee they'd like to hire. A required psychology course in college demonstrated to me that at least 40 out of 120 students in the class already knew how to take and pass tests in a subject they knew nothing about. With a little effort and concentration even a personality/attitude test, like the lock on your front door, is no match for one determined not to be stopped by it.
Nothing beats sitting face to face with a prospect, paying attention to him/her, and really listening to his/her answers. You can tell if the prospect is honest, hardworking, smart, and wants to improve if you spend at least an hour with him/her.
But you must be honest, hardworking, smart and yourself in order to recognize them in others. Otherwise that good honest employee will just make you uneasy with your own dishonesty (though its human nature to deceive yourself that it's something else that bothers you) and you waste the employee’s time and yours. Look him/her in the eye and talk to him/her.
