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pigment stain vs. dye stain?
12/9
What are you guys take on pigment stains vs. dye stains. I know that some stains use both. I am trying to figure out when to use which one to get the final colors I am trying to match. We are working on matching our own stains in house as the suppliers are charging so much for the mixed stains that it is just becoming cost prohibitive. So far it has been working nicely but just need some more direction.
12/9 #2: pigment stain vs. dye stain? ...
Lots of variables to take in consideration when using dyes or pigment stains. Most common is to dye the wood first, then apply pigment. Though one firm I worked with preferred to add dye the MLC's Woodsong stains as a short-cut to save time and labor.
Dye stain can also be added to you finish lacquer as in Microtoners from MLC too!
Not all woods benefit from Dye stains.
The choice is yours by experimenting and developing sample boards.
12/9 #3: pigment stain vs. dye stain? ...
Pigment stains have very, very finely ground solids in them, and as such, are more likely to obscure grain. That doesn't mean that they necessarily WILL obscure grain, just that multiple coats CAN obscure the grain.
Dyes, on the other hand (which can be sold in either powder or liquid form), once properly dissolved in water, alcohol, or other solvent, are completely liquid and are translucent when applied. The dye is sealed, and a subsequent coat(s) of the same or a different shade of dye stain can be applied without ending up with a "muddy" look. If you apply multiple coats of pigment stains you can end up with a muddied look, in addition to obscured grain.
For this reason obtaining the right color is often (if not usually) a multi-step process.
The base color is established with an application of dye stain (or stains), which are then sealed. Then pigment stains can be applied to get you to (or close to) the final color. Once sealed, this color can then be finished, or tweaked with toners and/or glazes.
12/10 #4: pigment stain vs. dye stain? ...
It really depends on your skill level and the look you are trying to achieve, there are some finishes that simply cannot be duplicated without using one or the other...or a combination of both.
One big advantage to dyes is you are not limited in the number of coats that can be applied, at least theoretically speaking.
A properly reduced and sprayed dye can be built up, coat after coat and not obscure the grain whereas the much larger size of the colorant in pigment stains will muddy the grain quickly if too much is left on the surface, as well as causing drying and adhesion problems.
Dyes are great for making figured woods pop and building deep dark colors with out having to leave excess pigment stain on the wood.
Pigment stains are better at ticking and coloring the pores of the wood and generally require less skill to use than dyes.
12/10 #5: pigment stain vs. dye stain? ...
The other thing that dyes will do: create that golden highlight that nothing else will. An amber shade can come close sometimes, but an aniline dye is magical. Oil-borne aniline dyes are more lightfast. (resistant to sunfade) Alcohol-based anilines must be sprayed because they dry almost instantly, and you cannot see how it will look until it is coated with sealer, or another clearcoat of your choice, so your sample testing is critical. The other guy is correct - dye first, then build your color on that in translucent steps. Oil-based Paste wood filler, (aka pore filler) is an essential but often overlooked step in the process. It comes as thick as axle grease, and must be reduced with mineral spirits. NOTE: I am old school, and will not use anything but an oil-based PWF. IMHO, it is Benjamin Moore's product. Believe it. You may close your hymnals - end of sermon.
12/12 #6: pigment stain vs. dye stain? ...
Website: http://www.jhconklin.com
We work mostly on older furniture and begin our color process with a dye 90% of the time to set a base or background color. Greater transparency, deeper colors and more conducive to 'chatoyance'. After sealer, often pigment stain to touch the pores if pore-filler is not in the equation. After more sealer, then glazes, shaders, toners as needed to dial in the look.
12/12 #7: pigment stain vs. dye stain? ...
Website: http://www.jhconklin.com
Sorry, meant for this image to be attached
12/12 #8: pigment stain vs. dye stain? ...
Website: http://www.jhconklin.com
OK, since I'm striking out on image links, I may as well learn....
Link
12/14 #9: pigment stain vs. dye stain? ...
Dan, quite a question. I've been a finish artisan for 30 years, and what everyone is saying is true. Your getting technical information here on what pigment will do over dye. I think you seem to be at the point where this information is already knowledge. I will say this much.....we keep a large inventory of pigments, dyes, glazes, paints(Yes ,paints can also be used in different application methods to change tones and shades of wood on transparent finishes), toners ect.
depending on the finish you are matching all or some may be applicable ranging from base color tones to the more exotic multi layered finishes. Its all in the project at hand and the scope of your clientele. no amount of information aside from mixture knowledge will lessen the need for samplings. To answer your question from experience.....BOTH! Good Luck.
12/18 #10: pigment stain vs. dye stain? ...
it totally depends upon your wn... you may take a board and craft different samples on it to check out the best...
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