Architectural Woodworking

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Tolerances for installing natural wood trim

12/12/18       
Brian Member

Doing a job for a customer installing the inside window casing on an old farmhouse. They framed up new walls on the inside because the old ones were so fast out of plumb. Some of the casings are 4 7/8" at top and 5 1/2" at bottom on one side while the other might be 5 at the top and 5 3/4" at the bottom. So everything has to be ripped down at an angle.

The casing is 1x knotty pine, the trim is 1x4 and 5/4 knotty pine.

I guess my question is... what are the tolerances for the casing and trim? Gaps.

I've never had someone question a 1/32" gap between the casing and the window . Is there supposed to be zero tolerance?

What is the AWI standard for gap tolerances?

12/12/18       #2: Tolerances for installing natural w ...
Adam

Interesting question

If we don’t mill the material, all bets are off. The material is guaranteed to be warped, cupped and at the very least not flat. You could get 1/32 gaps from the material forget what you do with it.

Then the species. There is a massive difference between the stability of knotty pine vs cherry or maple.

Are the window doors themselves square,level,plum. Are the joints mitered or butted?

1/32” would be the maximum for any joint in any of our paint grade work. Clear finish is tight. Tight enough the glue fills the gap not wood filler.

I’ve worked on plenty of houses built pre 1900. It all can be done perfectly, but few customers are willing to do the last 5%.

12/13/18       #3: Tolerances for installing natural w ...
Fred

Hi Brian,

I like to price it as a situation where the more customer is willing to pay the better a job he gets.

12/13/18       #4: Tolerances for installing natural w ...
Brian Member

I guess if the customer said "I don't care what it takes and I'm willing to pay", then possibly you could expect perfection. Even then there are just way too many variables to get it with zero tolerance, in my opinion. They are planning on doing the trim, however i have a feeling I'll be asked to do it. I trimmed out one window so they could see what it will look like. All of the but joints are tight, but on the sides of the trim it's not 100%tight because the drywall is not perfectly flat.

12/14/18       #5: Tolerances for installing natural w ...
David R Sochar

It is not reasonable to hire a person to do work when they have to follow the work of others that may have made the problems worse. That is, if you don't have control over what your predecessor does, or the owner decides, then you may want to reevaluate your attachment to the work.

As a secondary, you may want to do the work on time and materials, and have your customer sign off on one completed window, so you can work without second guessing yourself.

12/14/18       #6: Tolerances for installing natural w ...
Brian Member

David you are right on point.
I actually did a sample window fully trimmed out. Either they were overwhelmed or thought it looked really good. They decided to have me do the rest of them.

And from the start i told them this would be a t&m job. Way to many variables.

12/14/18       #7: Tolerances for installing natural w ...
MarkB Member

I would think this would be an easy one to just say it will be approximately XX for this level, and cost plus or a higher XX for super tight.

Sounds like your talking that your main issue is with regards to the extension jambs and stool running back through the new window openings to the face of the window. It is not uncommon in old (and sometimes new) homes for these to never be a simple straight rip. Horizontal drywall seams leave a fat area in the opening as do vertical seams split over a wide opening (hopefully your not coming behind someone who splits sheets on a corner).

While it is more work, its not terribly hard to scribe the extension jambs to the window face. It adds a step to each leg of the opening but its most definitely possible. Once your extension jambs are flush or slightly proud of the drywall face the world is right again and your off to the races. That said, I woudlnt be adding that step without having incorporated it into my bid.

Sounds like maybe they should have incorporated a bit of crafty profiling into their trim package that would allow for some sliding interfaces and perhaps a back band around the casing to provide some quick fudge on the install. But if they are not wanting to pay, they arent going to go that route.

12/15/18       #8: Tolerances for installing natural w ...
Mark  Member

As far as tolerance go, 1/32" for trim joinery
is too big- joints should be tight, flush and put together in a manner to ensure longevity.

However, unless you did the work, there is
really no way to control existing conditions. And while it may make you look like a know it all superp***k, you have to point out those bad existing conditions before you start.
Then when you have small gaps or tapered fit ups to those conditions, you at least warned them. And of course those jobs have to be T&M.
As far as having different levels of performance and standards of work driven by how much you can squeeze out of a job- BULLS**T. Had a guy say he'd do better for more money, fired him on the spot. Do the best work you can always, money follows.

12/16/18       #9: Tolerances for installing natural w ...
MarkB Member

I dont really agree at all. The answer to me lies in your statement of pointing out the field conditions on your initial evaluation. You may well have a customer that when shown that the conditions will require extra hours (extra $$) may well state that they understand it's an old house or progress to this point has been less than perfect and they dont expect perfection. As I stated it's pretty common for us to have to scribe in new construction and it's just part of what you do.

If the OP bid the job without the discussion or a mutual agreement of some sort of standard and now feels shorted it's a little late.

I dont agree with arbitrarily working to the highest standard if your not being compensated or expected to. If you bid all your work that way, have good foresight, and land enough work that's wonderful.

The point was that on viewing the field conditions it would be very easy to see how much work would be required to get to industry standard results and the conversation happens then not after.

12/18/18       #11: Tolerances for installing natural w ...
Brian Member

In my experience it doesn't matter whether it's new construction or old, it's impossible to get a perfectly 100percent tight fit up against the window and the drywall. You might scribe the jamb to fit the window, but if the drywall has waves in it, you'll see it from the side. If it's painted trim that can be caulked for a seamless fit. I don't see how that is possible with natural wood. If you coped the jamb to the drywall you'd see a potential wave where the trim meets the jamb.

So my point is the has to be some sort of tolerance.


Post a Response
  • Notify me of responses to this thread
  • Subscribe to email updates on this Forum
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)