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I have a job I'm bidding on in an ultra high end house that wants some elaborate recessed panel wainscot. In the past, I've done my pricing based upon a pretty simple lf pricing plus cuts. However, I'm thinking this really won't work for this job.
The wainscot will be made from a wood rail and stile frame with inset 1/4" panels, a built up 2 piece baseboard, panel mouldings inserted into the frame, a chair rail cap and cove moulding combination plus back band on the casings to bring up the casings to the chair rail depth. I'm getting some pretty crazy sqft prices when I use my previous formula. It seems to get whacked out with the panel mouldings taking 4 cuts each.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how they price this out? Is there a ballpark figure that is reliable?
Thanks in advance.
Try pricing each panel as a door about the same size, add the moldings , finish and install. It should get you close enough to tweak one way or the other.
Ballpark on elaborate? If they want the high end fancy, let them pay for it. Takes a lot of work to make it, why should they get a deal?
My standard is $25/SF, poplar using a door profile with MDF paneling. Solid gets bumped up to $35/SF and more depending on species.
Start adding moldings and 2 pc base and the price is going to get even higher.
We have no idea what your shop rate is, what your shop overhead is, and what your skill level is. No way anyone here can tell you what to charge. Ball park numbers will almost always result in low or no profits.
Thanks for the door idea. Sometimes you get lost in the details and pricing for above market average typically has a lot of them. As well as the typical, perhaps amateurish, gut reaction to your own pricing being way too high. Thanks everyone.
in response to Rich C
I understand the need to know overheads
compare a highly skilled cabinetmaker working out of his garage on classical equipment (low overhead)
to a capable programmer with investment in CNC equipment (high overhead)
both are able to produce equal quality work, but one is compelled to charge more for the work,
Who would you hire?
Who would the customer hire?
but the picture is entirely misleading (at least from my perspective)
Is it any wonder this is a dying industry
we should perhaps all stop pretending this is an art and accept that automation is now the norm, we are manufacturers with a large product range, nothing more, there is little that we can do that is unique, its all been done before, after all its a very old industry
so why after all this time are we still unhelpful to each other in establishing pricing models that support us all?
please explain to me how we, as an industry without the sharing of price information to each other, look anything other than a disjointed and speculative industry where price and value are totally subjective?
we have introduced technology that brings us in line with every other type of manufacture in terms of fabrication, but we still like to think there is some mystery to our art, just taking a look at the price survey in FDMC shows how much of a mess we are in as an industry, and its no wonder people ask questions on pricing
Our suppliers dictate our pricing and have a significant impact on the quality of work we can achieve (standards are always dropping from what I see) and what was once good quality is now premium with a price to match.
and of course our variable pricing model is work for less money.
We are all instrumental in the diminishing of our industry.
No disrespect to you but often when someone doesn't know the answer they instead of saying nothing,
The original poster will have learned nothing from your pricing model in terms of being able to price out this work at levels that will either earn him a living or make a success of the job or support our "professional industry"
a better answer would be sit down and do the math to price the work
Now if he is too lazy to do the leg work that is a different issue and his time in the industry will be short lived in any case
but at least if they ask we should be helpful as low ball and inexperienced newcomers affect us all in the long run
It is an art, a dying one. And lots of people don't have automation style machines. Different areas require different pricing. Material costs are different if you are buying 300BF or 10,000BF of lumber, same with most everything.
So there is no standard price, there never will be a standard price until everything is produced by one entity.
fair point but
end user price is relevant here, not your cost of producing the item, this is the driving force in all manufacture
every cabinet maker worth his salt whether using automation or manually should be able to produce work at a cost that meets client expectations
and given your statement who buys 10,000 bf for a job requiring 100 bf
and if i held that 10,000 bf material in stock, the cost savings are not for my customers benefit but mine, so in essence I would still cost the work at the same price to the customer as if i was purchasing 100 bf otherwise there is little point in me purchasing the volume of material
so the comparison of buying power is irrelevant to final price, which is what the poster was looking for to present to his customer
Just my two cents. I agree with a lot of what gaxon said. That said, if it truly is "ultra high end", why are they getting pricing? They should be looking for the best shop and or craftsperson(not craftsman, didn't want to offend the liberals)😀. Sell yourself on how good of a job you do, that you will never sacrifice quality to meet a deadline, and if they have to ask the price, mark it up considerably as there is the high maintenance factor.
but you need data to input
there is significant benefit to shops who are after all value the adding to the raw product, working together to bring costs down from a supply point of view, group buying etc
the people getting rich in this supply chain are the component suppliers whether that is raw lumber or hardware, and don't forget they are entirely dependent on our industry, we do nothing to bring them into line with either the quality of material we receive or pricing, we try to pass on these costs to our customers but in reality most of us price below what we are worth to compensate (be competitive), because our pricing model is fundamentally subjective through a lack of industry co-operation and sufficient shared data
It has always surprised me how easily we bend to our clients demands, (who are generally unskilled in any practical way) when in reality industries like ours shape the world, and are responsible for leading trends and innovation.
We are doing ourselves an injustice as an industry, we do little to support the future of the industry wages are stagnant to insulting, all of this can change with pricing structure and uniformity
standardization is in every aspect of our industry from hardware to raw lumber to the 32mm system kitchens are standardized, your outsourced doors and decorative corbels or drawers are standardized, its just us in the middle who cannot see it or think that we are somehow not, that are missing the point
Count required work days, plus raw materials (every stick). That's a start. After that, it's profit margins and unexpected contingencies. Don't forget a-hole insurance to cover extra costs associated with those inevitable and unreasonable customers. (I love everything about being in business, except idiot, customers.)
Square-foot prices and other quicky estimating shortcuts, usually leave you on the short-end.
Making money happens here and now, at your desk and not on the job. If you don't get it right and right from the start, it will all be for nothing. Never worry about how the other guys are going to price it. Just CYAS. Think every work order, is like, potentially, catching a fatal disease. Be willing to take risks but only a little bit.
In response to your comments gsxon, you sure have a broad range of expertise! I would never consider someone asking for a ball park number to be requesting a formula. I've always considered a ball park figure to equate to a WAG. But I guess my first point of contention as I skimmed over your broad report, is how you think this is a dying industry? It looks healthy to me.
he asked of a way to price it out, and if there was a reliable ballpark solution take your pick
your suggestion to start with overheads and work from there? is reasonable but directing towards fundamental practices of pricing work is a better suggestion don't you think, and is pretty simple
what is clear is that it's a lazy way to price a job, and I would not trust anything I got from a forum to run my business.
you can take offence to my response to you, (if you like) I directed to post to you because you used a comment that I have seen a lot on the site, and I question how useful it is in real terms and my example shows a flaw in the argument.
as for a dying industry you need to take a look around you, where are the next generation of cabinetmakers?
it might look all rosy right now, but I said dying not dead
survey the average age of most shop employees, who are the really skilled guys and what ages are they?
sorry if my post was a long read but i like a good rant now and again (reading them is optional)