Message Thread:
Starting a new company, what's most important?
4/22/15
Hello Woodweb!
I am a custom homebuilder that has decided to open a cabinet shop mainly to help supply my houses with cabinets, specialty trim and architectural details. I am fortunate that I am taking over an existing space from a friend of mine who was in the commercial cabinet game so the shop is set up with electrical/air etc. He is selling me a Holzher panel saw, a double line borer, pocket screw machine, large compressor, and blum press.
I feel like this is a great starting point for framed/frameless cabinets and can outsource my doors and drawers until I decide to take that on later.
I want to buy a few other tools to complete the startup, such as a planer, jointer, bandsaw, table saw, edge sander, but is there one tool that I should have above all the ones my friend is selling me? Wide belt sanders get mentioned a lot but I don't know if they are a major requirement until I start building my own doors.
Thanks for the input, I'm excited to get started and glad I found Woodweb!
Blake
4/22/15 #2: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Really depends if you are going to open a custom woodworking business, or a cabinet shop. If cabinet shop, and doing frameless, get an edgebander first, then a CNC router 2nd. If custom woodworking, then get the tools you mentioned. Sounds like you better negotiate for that guy to stay for a while, till your feet are on the ground.
4/22/15 #3: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Thanks, It will probably be 80%-90% faceframe cabinet work. I want some of the other tools to do specialty pieces/general woodworking and might look to add a moulder later on.
It seems like an edge bander and CNC router are the two foundation tools for frameless construction, I was curious what the foundation tools were for faceframe beyond what I'm starting with.
Is a drum sander a reasonable alternative to a wide belt?
4/22/15 #4: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Nope, a drum sander has no place in a commercial shop.
4/22/15 #5: Starting a new company, what's most ...
The most important thing about the cabinet shop business is extending credit.
Will your customer pay you promptly or in arrears, generally speaking contractors pay slow.
4/22/15 #6: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Ha, that's certainly true.
4/22/15 #7: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Going to frameless would be my choice. Less labor, more expensive equipment. Outsourcing doors & drawer boxes. That arrangement gives a lot of volume flexibility. Almost all commercial casework is frameless so your friend would be experienced in that. Drum sanders are very slow. At start up you don't need a widebelt if you out source.
4/23/15 #8: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Thanks Larry, my friend does have a large edge bander to sell but I figured it would not be necessary for me to start. Maybe you're right I should look to frameless more than FF and have him sell the bander to me as well.
The cabinets in my kitchen, built last year, seem to be a regular frameless style. The difference is each box or group of boxes (two uppers to right of sink, or two uppers to left of range) is also wrapped with an additional layer of plywood so the end result is an almost inset or full overlay look. the outer box comes proud 3/4" so they are flush with the door. Is this a common take on frameless for a residential application?
I love the cabinets and their quality so doing something like this would be fine for my style of houses. It seems like they just dressed up frameless to be more like inset which is the most popular style but not the easiest to build.
Thanks for your input!
4/24/15 #9: Starting a new company, what's most ...
An edgebander is a must.
Many euro style cabinets use applied panel on the exposed.ends that are brought out flush with the door face.
4/24/15 #10: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Like Derrek said. But it depends on the technology of the builder. If the cases are doweled they can have the outside face be finished w/o the need for an applied finished end. Lots of possible variations in construction and hanging details. The full blown Euro system is pretty slick but few small shops fully utilize it. The hang rail and adjusters for uppers makes for a very easy install.
4/24/15 #11: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Thanks Derrek and Larry, I have decided to buy his edge bander, he's making me a great package deal, and frameless does seem to lend itself to more growth opportunities. If it can look like my house then it has enough flexibility to be fine for the mid-high end residential that I do. Thanks again.
4/25/15 #12: Starting a new company, what's most ...
blake
Do yourself a huge favor and invest in the software and a router with drilling block. You can supply closets along with your cabinets. Face frames are great, but we are seeing a trend toward frameless in the midwest.
4/25/15 #13: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Thanks CM, the trend here is definitely toward cleaner design. People like classic white kitchens but don't want half overlay at all. Either inset or full overlay and frameless is basically both of those depending on how it's finished out.
I am going to be hiring my trim carpenters who are great cabinet builders to do the bulk of the construction, paying a daily rate, so I won't have any overhead beyond the shop rent. But, having a CNC would even cut down on that and I could probably do a lot of the production myself if I wanted/needed to. I'm sure I could find a million other things to do with it that I haven't even considered yet. I watched a NewCNC video with a lathe attachment that I could use now for porch balusters and tons of other stuff.
Can you make a recommendation? I know CAMaster is located relatively to me but I don't really know if they sell what you are talking about or the difference in all the terms, cnc/router/nested/ptp.
Are you talking $30-$40k or $100k+?
Thanks! Blake
4/25/15 #14: Starting a new company, what's most ...
I am partial to Biesse and Cabinetvision.
You honestly need both the cnc and the software, a vacuum lift and good dust collection.
The big thing to look for is a drilling block. We have 20 drills- 10 in x and 10 in y and they all work when drilling closets.
I am not going to lie- It's not cheap and you will need a person to go to operate the cnc. One or two guys can get a lot done between drawing, loading, edgebanding and assembly. You do have to have good logistics and very detailed darwings to get it all to work, though.
There are a lot of great cnc's and other software out there, but in the grand scheme of things, you are going to need to invest a good chunk of money for reliable machinery and good software
4/25/15 #15: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Things you could do with a CNC
Stair stringers
Any arch or non rectangular shape templates or framing patterns.
Arched molding profiles.
Fluted trim, shaped capitals,
Custom lettering/ patterns /designs for wood, concrete,
A kidney shaped top for an island becomes a simple task. A barrel vault ceiling.
A curved soffit or "cloud" following any pattern
The Smith residence routed into a board, you give and place if they want
Most of us don't pay a guy to operate a cnc by the piece or day, in fact some of think giving the keys to a 200k machine deserves come discretion in who operates it, just like loaning out your Ferrari to the laborer. :=)
4/25/15 #16: Starting a new company, what's most ...
No at that price I'll be doing the driving.
Do the $35k machines just produce less than compared to a $200k version or do they have a lot more limited capabilities?
4/26/15 #17: Starting a new company, what's most ...
I would take a look at the 35k machines. They will be faster than the employees mistakes and oh I forgot excuses or the oops on cutting something wrong. However, I have had a chance to buy one, and the watching it run made me cringe after owning some big iron. Take a look at SNX or Limtech or the Biesse Klever They have good machines and I am thinking of a Klever for our countertop shop for Corian and Plam square edge tops. Don't forget the software.
4/26/15 #18: Starting a new company, what's most ...
It looks like both Limtech and Biesse are in North Carolina not too far from me. I think I'll plan a trip or two this summer to go see them up close and get a better feel for how they work.
I watched a new cnc video of their lathe attachment and after spending $2500 last week on turned porch balusters something like that was very interesting.
Thanks
4/26/15 #19: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Website: RodriguezCabinets.com
we looked at the NEWcnc as well, but opted for the Weeke.
turning balusters/island post sounded profitable ,until we priced 12/4 material vs pre manned pieces...
4/26/15 #20: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Blake, I'm starting to have some doubts about this line of discussion, or maybe just concerned about it's direction. You are a custom homebuilder, you will now run a custom cabinet business, and now you said you will run the CNC because it is an expensive machine. Just how many hours do you think are in the day? Those three items are the jobs of at least 3 people, probably 5. I'd also suggest that day laborer trim carpenters may not make the best cabinetmakers. Running edge banders, panel saws, and other major equipment is a long ways from a sliding miter saw and a nail gun. Also, just because you spent $2500 on porch balusters, doesn't mean you can do it cheaper. Make sure you see a baluster made on a CNC before you buy one. They don't deliver the same surface quality, as tight of details, nor not nearly as fast as a CNC copy lathe. If there is carving, no contest. But a $35,000 cnc router is not going to make fast, cheap balusters. I know this is just a lot of business talk, but you should really take a LONG look at all this talk. In plain terms, the dial on the BS meter is going up fast here!
4/26/15 #21: Starting a new company, what's most ...
I'm pushing the like button on Rich's comment.
I suggest you look up the concept of comparative advantage. It pulls some of your ideas back to the ground.
E.G. A former customer, who specializes in restaurant chains, bought a router and cabinet vision. His son, an aggressive individual, learned cabinet vision well enough to build boxes, did the "drawings for a reception desk and ordered the materials. He decided that this desk was more than they wanted to deal with and asked me to price it. I did and asked him(son) if I had to buy all of his material. He said yes. I said in that case I will pass. His dad gets back to me and says that they would take back any left over material.
I did the job and gave them over half of the material back. But his son swore that is what Cabinet Vision told him to order.
Again keeping with the concept of comparative advantage. It is quite easy to pump out boxes which is why it is quite easy to buy your routing from another shop for $40.00 or so a sheet or buy the boxes from a catalog or what most do these days, buy the cabinets from China.
The question is what is the pay back on your opportunity cost, on an item that is extremely plentiful?
If you think that owning this machine is going to make you qualified to do architectural woodwork think again.
If you make an emotional decision, which contractors are prone to do, you WILL regret it.
Do the math.
4/26/15 #22: Starting a new company, what's most ...
That is true and cabinet vision is too steep of a learning curve for me at this point. I am fast to learn and slow to buy which is why I haven't made any major equipment or shop purchases in my 12 years. I've basically gone from not wanting/needing a cnc 2 weeks ago to realizing they would do my kind of work, and finally to wanting to keep that avenue open and learn what kind of cnc I "need".
Truth is my laborers are woodworkers, and my advantage is buying the machines for a good price and having people that know how to run them. That and a good friend that has a business that sells raw cabinet materials as well as boxes/doors so I don't need to push it too fast. I have a great starting point and will take it easy.
The software alone would keep me out of the CNC market for a while but I do enjoy learning about them and I guess this feed kind of took on a life of its own!
Thanks as always, Blake
4/27/15 #23: Starting a new company, what's most ...
I'm glad to see things get turned back some. There have been some good posts here. Most notably just because a router can do it, doesn't mean you should. Also having employed several "trim carpenters" I'd use some considerable caution in thinking they are production woodworkers. I've seen comments on other threads that think a CNC operator just has to put the sheet on and push the green button, maybe, but not in my shop. I'm also a big iron guy, but would not recommend it for a start up. Think in terms of $, ROI! Will you have someone to run multiple businesses?
4/27/15 #24: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Hey Larry, it definitely sounds unusual I'll grant you that. There are two points that make my situation different than everyone else's. First, the carpenters I'm speaking of have built cabinets for me in the past and have a small shop behind one of their houses. They are very good workers with great work ethic and my having a larger shop and the right tools will only make them better and more efficient. If we get to a point where the workload demands full time employees they will be the first ones I will try to hire.
The other point is that I've figured this venture being able to pay for itself with just 3 houses worth of kitchens/baths per year. I think the actual number will be more like 6 but as you can see, if a good shop can build cabinets for one kitchen in a week or less, the shop will be running a total of 6 full weeks a year. If I go by myself a day a week here and there to help with the cutting and pre assembly, that will speed up the process even more. I can also spend time on smaller detail pieces for the houses when I want but it wont be an all day every day shop.
That helps with the management so I should be fine there, and I'm also going to buy a table saw, planer, jointer, edge sander, and bandsaw so the shop can do more than just cabinets.
I'm either crazy smart or just crazy, time will tell!
Thanks for the help, Blake
4/27/15 #25: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Huh? "If we get to a point where the workload demands full time employees they will be the first ones I will try to hire."
You better have a good tax guy or tax attorney if you plan on making cabinets in your business, with your machinery, with no employees. The Feds don't look kindly to people running a business with "independent contractors"!!!!! Maybe I just misunderstood?
4/27/15 #26: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Yes they are a subcontractor and I would pay them like I do now for the house work. All above board.
4/27/15 #27: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Like I said, have a good tax person BEFORE you start making cabinets. "Under common-law rules, anyone who performs services for you is your employee if you can control what will be done and how it will be done."
IRS Rules
4/28/15 #28: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Insanity isn't a requirement to be in this business, but it sure helps. Rich is correct about the IRS rules.
About the economics of your venture, investing in a shop & equipment to use it on a part time basis doesn't seem likely to yield a satisfactory return. I don't think many small cabinet shop owners net much beyond a decent wage running as full time businesses. I know my break even point causes large swings in profit/loss based on total sales. Store fixture mfg. is subject to big swings in demand. Housing is also, maybe a bit less but the same principles of investment follow. If this is being viewed as a hobby of sorts, different rules apply.
4/28/15 #29: Starting a new company, what's most ...
I'm doing it for control of the product and ability to do other small details of the houses and not for an income. If that happens fine but it's more to make sure I get the product I want in the time I want it.
And that irs thing has nothing to do with what i'm doing. My guess is most shops don't make their own plywood or electricity or hardware and have to rely on other businesses that sell goods/services to aide their business. It's more like that.
4/28/15 #30: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Website: RodriguezCabinets.com
sure is nice to have control over the quality of anything that supplied to us.
in a way,, its really hard for some of us to understand and comment on much of it, we don't know your budget or your current profit margins.maybe you'll be better off and with a nice hobby to boot.maybe break even but with piece of mind that you have received/produced exactly what your customer expects.
i did the same in a minute scale when i bought a small screen printing business that was going under, i just wanted control of how and when my company shirts and vehicle decals were made, when i looked into getting running again full scale, i found out why it went under in the 1st place,,,,,
4/28/15 #31: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Blake- I just bought a cnc granite bridge saw, rotary compressor, electronic templating system and a few other things to start our granite shop. IGNORE the negative stuff
4/28/15 #32: Starting a new company, what's most ...
What a hoot! I'm almost falling off my chair laughing!!!!!!! That's the perfect business reason Blake should get a CNC. Because you bought one, is that what you are saying Cabinetmaker? But, I'm just thinking that logic ties in just perfectly to Blake's comparison to hiring day laborers as independent business men in his fully equipped facility, to plywood manufacturing and electricity production. I give up on this one!
4/29/15 #33: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Rich-
What I am saying is that our facility has 12 employees and 2 shops - 1 for cabinets and 1 for counter tops. We are so sick and tired of not getting our quartz or granite on time for our contracted work, that just invested in a 5 axis cnc bridge saw, a polisher and some other equipment to run it. I had the same problem with Corian and now I buy a lot of in Corian a year for my own fabrication projects, but also for other cabinet shops that come to us for jobs.
A friend of mine owns 4 mil dollar showroom selling box cabinets and granite tops, because he too, as a home builder, could not close on a house over 2 damned missing refrigerator panels from an order.
My last comment was to ignore some of the negative comments. My biggest piece of advice is make the correct investment and avoid a lot of mistakes in the realm of mis-cuts, material waste, etc and control a lot more with a cnc router, instead of relying on manual labor. Looking @ his entrepreneurial spirit he could push closet systems, also with the cnc router.
I never said anything about employees, labor or breaking the IRS tax code on employees or subcontractors. Neither did he.
I got a negative comment about a forklift I once bought for a 1000.00. Never would do enough work to justify it, I was told. Now have two. We could never unload stone or 3 bunks of melamine every couple days without them.
Rich give us some background, how did you start ? How big is your shop ? How many employees ?
4/29/15 #34: Starting a new company, what's most ...
And to think all this started because I was curious just how important a wide belt sander was!!
The day laborers comment was great, yes that's what I'm doing, going to home depot in the morning and finding guys to build cabinets for $1m houses.
Thanks, this was fun!
4/29/15 #35: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Cabinetmaker,
Currently retired. Draftsman/Designer Caterpillar Inc 73-88. Separated and started a custom woodworking business, 88-96 with two employees, project builder/designer Woodworker's Journal Magazine 96-99, Lead Modelmaker/industrial Design Caterpillar Inc. 99-2014. I know, looks like I can't hold a job. LOL! All of the changes were my idea except for Woodworker's Journal separation. It was sold to Rockler, and they already had a staff from their Today's Woodworker mag. Enjoying the hell out of retirement with a pension, selling artistic wood turnings.
4/29/15 #36: Starting a new company, what's most ...
Blake,
I am a Custom Cabinet Maker in NC for over 12 years and actually survived "the housing crash". I would be glad to help you with your new venture. I have experience with CNC Routers and the Software you really need. You can spend $ thousands that you do not need to spend.
4/29/15 #37: Starting a new company, what's most ...
"My last comment was to ignore some of the negative comments. "
There have been a lot of auction notices over the past few years too many to ignore.
Not to say I don't hear what you are saying however I would recommend prudence.
You can an idea if your idea is going to work by subbing out the router work and assembling in house.
Otherwise it is a big gamble based on what?
4/30/15 #38: Starting a new company, what's most ...
The numbers on failed businesses are high that's true. All i'm doing is buying about $25,000 worth of tools for $20,000 and renting space that is already wired and plumbed for a cabinet shop for a great price. Although I am looking to add more tools, the risk is minimal as long as I don't over do it with overhead or crazy computer programs.
I'm the type of builder that likes to spend money on things that can make money, not ATVs or cigarette boats. If it fails I can sell the tools and go back to doing what I have been with no money lost. KISS is my motto!
Thanks for the offer Doug Harris, I would love to take you up on that. could you email me and we can discuss?
Blake
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