Has anyone else noticed a huge shift in the labor market the past year or two? I used to get hundreds of resumes from grossly over-qualified people for entry level positions. Now when I post a help wanted as I only get a few responses, and most of them are from people from other industries who always wanted to work in a woodshop as long as they make more than they are making now.
What other sites besides Craigslist is good for posting employment opportunities?
I don't think woodworking or any trades are even on any Millennial's radar.
High schools years ago got rid of shop and technical classes because everyone is "going to college".
Even though an experience woodworker can probably make as much or more than a midlevel management drone how many kids want to spend 3-5 years to learn a trade ?
After getting bombarded by instant electronic gratifiaction and parental coddling they probably don't have the patience.
I can agree with Snagglepus's observations, but want to see the big time return to manufacturing and the personal responsibility that it engenders that Pat describes.
I only know of one Mellenial on the forums, and she is vocal and articulate, but I can't say she is representational of the demographic, tho it would be nice.
I think the 'shop local, buy local' movement is worth counting as a plus, but it has to fight the instant gratification of Amazon and drones feeding that instantaneous urge. How we as single shops, much less as a society can shift things is hard to see.
I do know we do a lousy job of mass education about our products, our skills our training, and the benefits and rewards of this profession - to both prospective employees and customers. I think that is where we need to concentrate the effort. It will pay off for us as individual businesses, raise the bar, and help change the attitude/prejudice our customers may have. How to do this will spark arguments.
I should say I have had 2 or 3 really qualified applicants, however their wage expectations aren't realistic. Everybody wants to work in a woodshop only if they can start at $20-25/hr plus free insurance and paid vacations, holidays, sick days. I'm the owner and don't enjoy those benefits. And my work is simply basic factory work, I'm not looking for master woodworkers or craftsmen, just dependable labor.
I think it boils down to pay and benefits. Cabinetmaking pays what $20 at the most and you have to beg for benefits. Other types of construction are starting at $20 if you have a couple years experience not to mention rate jobs/union which are very rare for cabinet shops.
I always find comparing wages on a $ per hour basis as a not very accurate method. If I was living in San Francisco or NY city, $20/hr wouldn't look very good. On the other hand if I was living in back woods Kansas it might look a lot different.
Comparing the construction wages with woodworkers wages is not comparing apples to apples. My son-in-law works in the construction trade and makes good money, WHEN he is working. The work is not consistent, so he gets a high wage to offset the down time.
When I hire, I stress the things that I offer besides money. Regular hours, weekends off, consistent work among others.
The people I look for are like what Jerry is looking for. Factory workers. I will teach them the skills they need. What I look for is curiosity, energy and determination. With people like that I will do well. I also look for help from different avenues. I get together with Goodwill and other social organizations to see they have people who can help. Someone with a disability can do some of my jobs, so if they can do it, I hire them. I have several people with mild disabilities that we can work around. I also look for stay-at-home parents. They can't work all day but a couple of them will work out to one full timer. I make this work with several other people.
Jerry, your quandary is a reflection of the economy past. Those who were over qualified or highly educated but not in this field, have all moved on.
Secondly, a lot of people who were good workers got churned under during the downturn as shops cut personnel to survive. They have either moved on, out of the industry or tried to make a go of it on their own. Either way, they aren't coming back.
I know of one local shop that cut from 11 down to four, no time off and 20% paycut across the board for the survivors. They did what they felt necessary. I am not affiliated with that shop, I know the owner, so no axe to grind here. They are in your same boat struggling to find workers. Shame, cause the guy is one of the good ones left out there.
Another issue is that there is a sorely missing lack of management training and ideology amongst some (not all) shop owners. This comes to bear and surfaces fairly quickly in some shop settings. Anyone with a brain and good hands doesn't stick around for those shenanigans, regardless if " that's just the owners personality".
Excellence in craftsmanship does not always translate to the ability to lead people regardless of the industry.
I went on my own a year ago and have found a niche for small projects in the 2 - 5K range. Jobs that other shops find to small to get involved in. So far, it has been all referral work and I land about 60 % of what I bid.
Any postings I see in the job section on WW always go with " salary commensurate with experience " , I am always curious as to why it is not listed with a salary range. You know ( or should know ) what your budget is for the position so why not put it out there?
The only person I know of that does that is Paul Downs and you have to research the Times article that references it. He did a great job of explaining where you could be to how far you can go if you put the effort in to it.
Best of luck.
As to the reference of Mel, I don't recall whether she self-identified as millennial, but agree she is well-spoken.
Snagglpus and Jerry's original comment reflect our experience. We've gone through a few now that have either been let go or quit. Some come in expecting to bang chisels with mallets and wear their leather apron only to be dissapointed by the reality. Others are dismayed by the opening wage and lack of benefits. Still others are upset when they aren't made foreman in the 1st 6 months.
This is a hard trade to learn and be good at. Even if you have the tenacity, if you don't have what we simply refer to as "it", you ain't gonna make it. "It" is a mind that works mechanically to me. Had some guys in here that want it so bad but there brains don't work that way and it becomes obvious they hit a wall after awhile. We're a small shop though and everyone does a little bit of everything. Someone without "it" could no doubt sand or mill all day in another shop.
Finally, don't forget mentioning the benefit of being able to work inside year round! Watching those framers in their monkey suits come in out of the snow in Feb. makes the heated shop look pretty nice despite a lower wage!
We can all lament the lack of appropriately qualified workers but more important perhaps is how we leverage the ones we do have or anticipate to hire.
Think about the Starbucks model. They already know the 1st, 2nd & 3rd thing they are going to train a new worker to do and they already have a training system in place.
They won't be trained by BillyBob using whatever system Bill can make up on the fly. They will have a way to certify who knows how to do what rather than just assume they know how because they should know how.
Somebody needs to train us cabinet shop business owners how to train people.
Our very own erstwhile Mel can attest to the attributes she found in a company that excited her. I don't think it was the cowboy mentality as much as the professionalism. They seemed to have a viable orientation system. I suspect this system was in place before they even met her.
PS: I am not disparaging Bill. He means well and is probably a great guy. It's just that if you pay him $25 an hour he's going to cost you $300 for the day. Depending on how many people he can (effectively) manage each worker is going to have to kick up (think Sopranos) $60 to $100 a day for him to hold that clipboard.
That better be some really great clip board holding at that rate.
Hey I'm a millennial! It's a biggy of a question though... but I think I got something that may be useful?
So why do I woodwork? I picked up my first hammer at 22. Was raised in a house where women cook and clean. Was a barista, met my fantastic husband, who told me "hey, why not make way more money doing something else?"
I started scaffolding for live events--went from a 8.50$ an hour job to a 20$ an hour job in 6 months. Found out, perhaps a little late, that I am handier and stronger than I ever knew I was.
Stumbled into a woodshop working set-decor installs for live events a couple years ago and discover the beauty of a humming saw. Been sold to it ever since.
Everyone I know has romanticised my job to no end--everyone regularly asks about it. Wants to know what it's like. Respects it.
So why aren't more of us woodworking? A few of the negative aspects that jumped up at me is shop guy mentality doesn't quite jive with the new generation. The aggression, the yelling, the short tempers, seem to be a little more common/prevalent in trades than anywhere else. It's not everyone's cup of tea.
Had I not been raised by an old school hard-arse, I'm not sure how it would seem. I know to look past it, not sure everyone does though.
The common reaction by said old school folks is that the new generation needs to harden.... I get it, but I also wonder---why?
You can totally do mud, blood and sweat without the aggro BS. New place offers that service--astoundingly more millennials there then in any of the shops I've recently brought resumes to.
Not sure what it is I can pinpoint for the other millennials, but what I noticed is that if you have a brain and some energy, nobody slows you down.
They even have process improvement forms for worker suggestions, that get rewarded with a weekly draw for a Tim Hortons card (Canadian blue collar caffeine provider chain of choice). And they are friendly--I haven't been treated like garbage once yet. Yet they also move mountains fast--their projects are gargantuan and plentiful.
Thought about this thread today. On monday, I got plucked from my job from this 6'4" beast of a 50 year old, to help him machine bristo beams. "You bored? Want something a bit more high energy?" "Heck yes!"
For those of you who do not know, bristo beams or kinda like reverse direction plywood, 3X20, and we were working from 8' to 18' long. Felt a bit like David and Goliath, and we downright murdered that project. Had a ton of fun doing it too.
This guy is amazing--been a carpenter, a drywaller, a logger, and then a joiner for this company for the last 15 years. In my eyes, patient, friendly, and a dang good teacher.
Found out through other folks that he regularly refuses to work with apprentices. Will down right tell them to F off and grab a broom. So I asked him about it.
Told me our generation doesn't seem to have the same keen-to-learn hard workers his had. That he mostly can't stand this "disgruntled, hands-in-the-pocket" kids.
I totally get what he's referring to. I think maybe the kiddos going through shops these days may not be our generations finest specimens??
But in our generation I see a ton of hard working manual types that are not in trades--actually choosing lower paying customer service jobs because they can;t stand trades environments.
Where is the middle ground here? How do we get those hardworking eccentric types into trades and get the older guys to lay off the aggro a bit?
I know I can get almost anyone to lay off the aggro, but I'm not sure I can even explain why or how to someone else that probably needs it even more then I do.
Hey sorry the shamelessly flood the thread with posts, but also remembered talking to a fellow that did some installs in Moscow. Told me Muscovites no longer work in trades--they import trades workers.
Believe it or not, there is currently a Little Ireland in Moscow. All imported Irish tradesmen to cover the uncovered.
This is NOT a mysterious unexplainable phenomenon.
It is the direct result of being trained to be that way. The entitlement mentality has metastasized throughout out the culture.
I do get that there is a nature attraction to technology to produce more. Currently with CNC technology. But I also remember my grandfather being enamored with a new way of drilling water wells that did not involve shovels, and making it his career. He went on to drill many wells for the MWD in the 1930s and 40s.
The entitlement mentality comes from government welfare. According to Walter Williams a black economist this greatly affects the black community.
But it also affects corporate welfare through subsidies that affords companies the ability to not compete in the free market e.g. Tesla would not exist at all if not for government subsidies another example is that 1/3 of all welfare in the US goes to Calif or the fact the Calif agriculture consumes 80% of the water, at a greatly reduced price, because the cost of the water is subsidized it allows them to be profitable in a very arid climate.
The point is that the entitlement mentality has metastasized throughout the economy.
IMO as the reality sets in that college is not even remotely worth it, highly subsidized, and that dirty jobs can make you a living, there will be a change in the entitlement mentality.
But also as the Federal government is forced to cut back on the subsidies the reality of survival will put a new perspective on things.
It would appear that being an a hole does not set well with the millennials? The fact is it doesn't set well with anyone. But an adversarial disposition is part of my generation. Not that it is smart.
Once again it is about control. When a person decides he is going to control with force alone, he is really deciding he is NOT going to control that person or area. As real control require intelligence and intelligently directed force. E.G. an angry guy (typical of alcoholics) wants to use all force and no intelligence. But as the famous philosopher John Wayne once said if you are going to be stupid you are going to have to be tough.
IOW good control does not go around pissing people off. Might help with the millennial crowd. But alas the entitlement mentality has f'd up everything.Maybe we will end up like Russia in more ways than one?
Entitlement is a funny one... I think there was a time where a newbie/young one was to shut up and sweep and be thankful to the ol' mighty lord/boss for being granted the opportunity to sweep those floors.
I think now with job and choice availability kids are a bit more cognizant to the fact of no workers=no money. But its true that the pendulum may be swinging a little too far for some.
I have zero fear of job changes, lay-offs, etc, as finding a new job is more of an annoyance than a big problem. Which I know was not a reality for my parent's time. That doesn't mean though that our generation will never care about a workplace--quite the contrary. If you are faced with choice, the logical thing to do is to try to select the best option. And a lot of us have the capacity to give everything we got to a place for the sake of being part of something. It's just really hard to find a shop that gives you that "I'm a part of something" feeling. Which is a shame--that feeling yields raw energy and a dang good day's work for everybody.
Strange thing-- I hear often from the older generation that our generation are a bunch of nancies. Which makes me laugh a bit--the next generation made us, as in brought us to the world and raised us. But I can see how it happens now that I have a kid. You want the best for your kids, you raise em nicer and safer than you were raised. You want to avoid having them face the struggles you faced. But then those very struggles made you tough and capable. But then what--subject your kids to those same struggles for the sake of toughness? Probably not.
Then again, it's almost cruel to make a kid believe that they are special for 18 years then kick them out into the harsh world where nobody cares for a second about them. 18 years of sheltered magic isn't worth an entire adulthood of disappointment. Finding out how to raise kids to be great adults sure isn't obvious.
Leads me to wonder--when you folks were my age, what did the older generation say about yours? Is it always generally like this that the younger annoy the older?
"I think there was a time where a newbie/young one was to shut up and sweep and be thankful to the ol' mighty lord/boss for being granted the opportunity to sweep those floors."
"I think now with job and choice availability kids are a bit more cognizant to the fact of no workers=no money."
the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.
Remember the video on comparative advantage?
Comparative advantage is all about exchange. The very mechanism that has created the current standard of living is comparative advantage.
You speak as though the shop owner is some sort of overlord who was anointed with his position in life. And that he is merely exploiting the workers. Which is understandable as this is what the media would have you believe.
Nothing could be further from the truth. The shop owner became successful by exchange. He determined what the customer considered to be valuable and then supplied what the customer considered to be valuable and usually gave them a little more than they expected. This requires hard work, doing what works, keeping to the straight and narrow, and keeping things in alignment with the goals of the customer and the goals of the shop/business.
There was a Roman guy that wrote about how youth weren't up to the standards he thought they should be. So in 2000 years not much has changed. Entitlementt has certainly advanced but there are good people and lazy people, as always. I do feel that the educational system is failing. Teaching should drive curiosity which drives learning. No child left behind is another way of saying set the standards low enough that everyone is deemed a success.
I must have expressed myself wrong--not at all what I am thinking Pat. I'm referring to the swing of the pendulum from one extreme, industrial revolution, to the other, right now. Being a worker has travelled a long way. So has being an owner.
There are no fingers being pointed from my part. I don't believe in that sort of crap--everything has a story.
In terms of exchanges--if the new generation doesn't want to woodwork, where is the exchange not being crafted? It's nice to say young people suck, but at the end of the day an aging fleet isn't the answer either.
Larry--no child left behind... Don't know about the States but I hear that they have stopped taking scores in sports in schools here now. Nobody loses apparently. I can't think of a single way that would be a good thing.
Folks, I'll ask it again: what did the last generation say about you guys when you were my age? I am very much curious about this.
"how it relates to millenials not working in trades."
It relates to everyone. The millennials have been trained that they are given things without a second thought about exchange. When I was a kid I would go around and mow neighbors lawns I had a newspaper route I even sold seeds door to door. Now mostly illegal immigrants mow the lawns (who are subsidized by the government, 1/3 of the welfare in the US goes to Calif-which also distorts the trades), what is a newspaper. the seed company went out of business (because the kids would pocket the money, long before the millennials were around) I'm not saying it is the millennials fault, but they do not understand what exchange is. The immigrants do, they have to exchange to survive, but as stated the government even perverts this natural inclination that the immigrants have.
This problem is not peculiar to the millennials, the average retiree will collect 7 times the benefits from medicare than he paid into the system. This is what will literally bankrupt the US in about 15 years. This and Social Security are called the entitlements.
Corporations collect subsidies so much so that if they cut off the biggest ones (ADM, Grumman, Boeing(ex im bank),GM, B of A, Wells Fargo, Warren Buffet, etc.) the budget would be balanced.
Even the construction business was subsidized with an unnatural boom from 2000 until 2007 in the US. This was because the government made excess funds available for home loans, which inevitably went bust.
So what is wrong with this, you ask, good question.
Besides the collateral reasons the bottom line is that it is missing price discovery.
The price discovery process (also called price discovery mechanism) is the process of determining the price of an asset in the marketplace through the interactions of buyers and sellers.
When excess money is made available through the government, as is the case with the aforementioned, the price inevitably goes higher then it would if left to natural price discovery.
This is why college is so expensive, this is why houses are so expensive, this is why farmers can buy their water so cheap, this is why Tesla exists (other wise their cars would be too expensive-as no one would pay the real price for his cars-think about it he is trying to compete with the big car companies).
This is why the USSR and Rome imploded, this is why Greece is about to, this is why the US will...
It is just like a household budget (which BTW is where the word economics comes from) when you spend more than you make you go broke, after the credit cards are maxed out. This is at the root of the problem. Say the average number of transactions per person per day is 10, multiply that by 7 billion, you have 70 billion transactions per day world wide. It is a fools errand to think that one agency can control that. But that is the hubris that the Federal Reserve Bank has and the USSR central bank had. As you can see they do infinitely more harm than good.
As you can see, I hope, prices change subject to supply and demand. This is the one bench mark that is true. But it gets perverted by governments and the hysteria they create as with the housing bubble, the stock market, and even going back to the tulip bubble in the 1600s, where people would pay years worth of income for a single tulip bulb.
There is also a growing "information Entitlement" that threatens to steer the perception and conversation of "entitlement" by claiming exclusive access to more accurate data, therefore stifling debate since the entitled in this case are the ones that claim a higher level of understanding due to their level of involvement.
They are entitled to determine the problems and therefore the solutions....
Excellent point Kilgore.
Let's move this out of the lofty clouds of tautology and break it down to actionable items.
Since Google owns all the information they can create the patterns they want to see happen. As more and more wealth concentrates to the information sector the price of housing near our information hubs will escalate until only those within that industry can afford to live there.
Since Google, Microsoft, Amazon & Facebook all want to offshore their tax liability there is nothing left to invest in infrastructure. If your teachers can't afford to live in the cities where they work and gridlock keeps them from commuting we will soon have no urban school system,
This is not a problem for the techies because Google will merely offer in-house education for their employee's children. It will be just another perk like free cafeteria or free drycleaning.
The ramifications of this will be severe and will manifest within two generations. If you lock one generation out their children will also be locked out. This foments all kinds of bad shit for the future.
The best thing our children could learn is to become an electrician. Someone has to maintain those two rows of electric fences all the googlytes will have to live behind in order to defend themselves.
Pat I think I finally got it. Thanks for your patience.
Your right. Our generation does have a poor understanding of exchange. I was like that too, till I was taught by an immigrant how to properly navigate life. And it does come down to always knowing what it is parties are exchanging. I guess I've just always called it "paying attention to everyone's incentives".
And life got a lot easier too. It was no fun being a confused millenial floating through a world you don't understand. Being handed things is not exactly an easy ride in some strange way--it does deprive you of the knowledge and power you need to actually control your life.
A tautology is merely an unnecessary repetition of the obvious. It's like saying "the sky is sometimes blue". In order to have any significance you need to provide a call to action. If you restate that tautology to stipulate there is a 40% chance of rain today you provide marching orders, ergo, "pack your galoshes, it's going to be a wet one!"
Making the observation that policy makers tend to feather their own nest is pretty obvious. Looking ahead to the future this provides a call to action for our children i.e., learn how to be an electrician.
And life got a lot easier too. It was no fun being a confused millenial floating through a world you don't understand. Being handed things is not exactly an easy ride in some strange way--it does deprive you of the knowledge and power you need to actually control your life.
Sactly, the best result is when you give the customer slightly more than they paid for, this would be in service or a feature or speed, etc.
"A tautology is merely an unnecessary repetition of the obvious"
That is the grammatical definition, I'm talking about the logic definition:
n. pl. tau·tol·o·gies
a. Needless repetition of the same sense in different words; redundancy.
b. An instance of such repetition.
2. Logic An empty or vacuous statement composed of simpler statements in a fashion that makes it logically true whether the simpler statements are factually true or false; for example, the statement Either it will rain tomorrow or it will not rain tomorrow.
If a word or concept that is used over and over implies that it's true. E.G. the big evil corporation or capitalism repeated often enough implies truth. Politicians use these terms in order to sell their constituents on ideas.
The word/concept of Exchange is NOT a tautology.
The idea of income inequality being created by big evil corporations absolutely is a tautology.
"It would appear that being an a hole does not set well with the millennials? The fact is it doesn't set well with anyone. But an adversarial disposition is part of my generation. Not that it is smart."
This stuck in my head since I read it. I gotta ask.... what's up with that? Cause it's for sure there, and I have to admit I spend a good amount of time not getting it.
Each generation has it's characteristics. The greatest generation are known for their gregariousness and selflessness, the boomers are sort of selfish and adversarial, the millennials already know everything and are entitled.
"Baby Boomers: Now approaching retirement age, the "boomers" are those born in the decade following the end of World War II (aged roughly 47-65). They are considered a generation who have "had it all", cosseted by parents who experienced the Great Depression and raised in the prosperous post-war era. Many benefited from free tertiary education and relatively low housing costs. Common put-downs range from 'self-obsessed' to 'stuck in their ways'.
Generation X: Those born roughly between 1963-1980 (now aged early-30s to mid-40s.) Gen-Xers are often labelled the "slacker" generation, uncommitted and unfocused. The "why me?" generation. They are the first generation to have experienced divorce on a large scale and are likely to have changed careers several times. While their parents grew up in the era of the Civil Rights movement, Xers are considered more likely to want to keep their heads down than to change the world.
Generation Y: Those born between 1981 and 1994. Common put-downs include lazy, debt-ridden and programmed for instant gratification. They are portrayed as demanding and unrealistic in their career aspirations. Now we can add "internet-addicted" and "lonely" to the list.
Generation Z: Those born 1995-2009, they are the first generation never to have experienced the pre-internet world. Accordingly are already technology-focused. The iPad generation?
Generation Alpha: Yes, now we're onto the Greek alphabet. This generation begins with those born in 2010. It has been predicted they will be the most formally educated generation in history, beginning school earlier and studying longer. The children of older, wealthier parents with fewer siblings, they are already being labelled materialistic."
Bwahahah internet addicted and lonely---can someone come give me a hug?? :)
Maybe you're all grumpy cause you miss haight and ashbury? ;)
So how prominent was the whole peace and love stuff? Was it just the cliqueyer folk running their mouths? Did everyone actually think humans could get along or was it no different then a fad, like twerking or something?
Cause I remember being a teenager and watching kids pay 30$ for a Che Guavera t-shirts... little revolutionaries. Singing along to their 30$ cd of Rage Against The Machine... "F you I won't do what you tell me!!"
You know we are not that different come to think about it. Boomers and millenials will probably get along just fine once we get use to each other--over an organic fruit smoothie with wheat grass and ginseng...made with a vitamix.
Little late to this thread but really enjoyed reading it!
Definitely agree that our country's "Safety net" has turned into a hammock.
Started my first company at 30. Never really had management training. Got sent to Dale Carnegie :-) by my last employer.
I got to say I was one hard working A-Hole. 100 hrs or more / week (yes really, 5 hrs sleep a night 7 days a week) Did not make a penny for 5 years. I was a nightmare to work for. Super demanding but also cared very much for my employees.
Got into woodworking by accident 7 years ago. Don't really call myself a woodworker. I run a computerized production line.
I have run into all the different generational differences. When I got into the industry and went to my first trade association meeting I took every course on employment as I thought that was my weakest point. (it still is).
I have come to a few conclusions for our type of business. IMHO
1.Expect to hire 3 to 5 people in order to find one good one.
2. Have a very tight agenda for the first 2 weeks.
3. Let the ones go that don't fit. I know it hard. I never fired anyone I did not like. I dont think I am much different from most of decent business owners, my gut feeling about employees is right most of the time. But some sort of quantitative measurement is even better.
Never think you can change an employee. Tried it for 20 some odd years 100's of employees. You would think I could get one.
4. Find that above average person, treat them like family and pay them above average wage. Expect them to care but not quite as much as you as an owner.
Good read about how to get loyalty from employees is "On Wings of Eagles" about Ross Perot. Doesn't paint him in the best light. Fun read anyway.
My high falutin MBA math taught me that if you pay someone 20% more and get 30% higher productivity and less headaches managing them you get better exchange.
Besides I have not found a graph taped to the break room wall that tracked my caffeine intake to the top level of "WARNING Avoid at all costs!"
When we close up, instead of saying have good day, I tell them "Thank You" and I mean it.
Good luck finding those above average people!
PS: When people ask me what I do for a living I say: I make sawdust, someday I hope to make money. But I am having fun.
Getting back to the OP—
Ever consider that because business is better, skilled people are getting hired in all sorts of professions?
It's the old small-biz dilemma, when you have no business, everyone wants a job. When you get big orders, so has everyone else, in woodworking and in related fields. At the same time, the guys with tablesaws in their garages (my shorthand for hackers who cut off the bottom of the market) go back to construction or their office job, leaving even more work on the table. The good workers become scarce.
From what I read there is going to be a growing demand for carpenters in the next decade (don't know if that translates into cabinetmakers)
Employment of carpenters is projected to grow 24 percent from 2012 to 2022, much faster than the average for all occupations. Increased levels of new home building and remodeling activity will require more carpenters
There are many sites for posting job. Are you aware about convention collective agreement for employees Which will help you to decide minimum salary for any desired field. These agreement is very important for employee safety. Have a look at this pdf.
I have a hard time finding workers too. I run a 20 person shutter shop in illinois, and I find myself training new people every 3 weeks.
I am a millenial and I come from a family of tradespeople. I can't believe the lack of work ethic that these people come in with. They do believe they are too good for certain tasks, even without any skill at all. They want to jump to the middle of the ladder, be validated, and respected without earning any of it.
I just want to shake these people and shout in their faces, " I WILL GIVE YOU A JOB FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE! ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS SHOW UP ON TIME AND LEARN!!!"
Mel, I have told these kids that in those exact terms. When I interview people, I lay everything out on the table. I dont want any confusion as to what is expected of them, and what they can expect out of the company. I usually get blank stares, or an "uh..ok." Its really frustrating.
Maybe I have a revolving door position. I am usually having problems filling maintenance positions or sanders. They pay $9.50 per hour. With raises every 6 months and full benefits. When I was just out of high school, I would have killed for that job. I dont think the pay is too low, because it is an entry level position. We aren't in a big city, so no high rents. What gives?
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Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.
You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.
WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.
Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).
Libel: Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.
Improper Decorum: Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).
Advertising: The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).
Repeated Forum Abuse:
Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.
There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).
The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)
Forum Posting Form Guidelines
The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines
Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
Thread Related File Uploads
Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .FLV .MP4 (Image Upload Tips) If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
The editors, writers, and staff at WOODWEB try to promote safe practices.
What is safe for one woodworker under certain conditions may not be safe
for others in different circumstances. Readers should undertake the use
of materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB after considerate evaluation,
and at their own risk.