Recently the media is on a hardcore "I hate millennials" trip. This is about the same time that I somehow became a person that is representative of millennials, as I am the only specimen here.
Too bad really-- all my waking hours are spent on work and child rearing and passing out flat on my face from exhaustion. I get told I'm entitled and lazy and I wonder if anyone can give me a single hour to myself in a day, to even feel that way. Cause I'd take it.
But it has nothing to do with me. I started asking everyone I know under the sun about this. It's been informative, as no one I know in person, would ever point this finger at me. They tell me things like "look around in the shop".
Yes, I do see it. For sure. It's there. Kids checking cell phones, kids hiding in storage to sit and chat (!!!!) telling off elders... Yes, it is there.
But what about me and my circle? I didn't see it because neither me or my close ones qualify. Parents, hard workers, die-hard academics, nerds, lovers of life. I am the exception in my circle, for working in trades.
The millennials in my circle have jobs like sales, development, engineer, purchaser, technical adviser.... and they are taking over solid. They live and breath their work like I do.
So here comes the question.... I'm not ready to accept that an entire generation is f'd. But trades seem to be.
In any generation, any population, there are exceptions to the standard. Pick a few qualities and plot them out and you get a bell curve. The ends of the curve - the smaller quantities - are the exceptions. Exceptional people - that may be exceptionally good or bad at what they do (or whatever metric you are examining), depending upon which side of the bell they are on.
Plot tobacco use against formal education, and you find the less educated smoke more, but so do the super educated. Plot tobacco use against IQ and the results are similar.
What metrics you would use for this discussion, I don't know. But if you found a few and could generate enough numbers for a sample, it would be interesting.
They - exceptional people - are the minority. This business seems to attract a lot of people that for one reason or another felt like more of an outsider than most people, and somehow gravitated to this work (low entry threshold?). This is true for both owners/managers/craftsmen and for the production workers and entry level shop help. For myself, I knew I wanted to work wood when I was 14, but everyone laughed at me and discouraged it. I was an outsider as a result - did not fit the mainstream.
As for why slackers end up in the trades, it is simple - other professions have found ways to weed out the slackers - unions, HR departments, drug tests, degrees, etc. In my generation, the surprise drug rest was the single largest cause of independent business start-ups for at least 5 years, starting in 1990 or so.
So the millennials that you see around you that are engaged, are passionate, are the exceptions for your generation, your time. The bulk may be busy checking MyFace, while you are working/raising/following your interests.
I think it has been like that since the first group of berry pickers went out - millennia ago.
I'll link to the controversial 1994 book, The Bell Curve. Its facts are simply facts and fascinating for that - the bell curve charts. However, the authors were strongly criticised for drawing the wrong conclusions from those facts, and their arguments were/are used by some to support racism. Tread carefully.
Same BS for every generation, just more subjects needed for 24 hour news noise these days. I was a hippy and was dirty, lazy, smoked that brain frying weed, and was useless. Worked 41 years, often 2 jobs. I operated my own business for 8, raised two wonderful kids, etc. sitting here with a nice pension, still working on the lathe creating art. No such thing as new problems.
There is a famous quote by a guy in Rome complaining about the younger generation. The year was about 200AD!
All sorts of things become "IN" subjects. I can pretty much prove global warming. There are rocks left here by the last, or many, periods of glaciation. It was cold back then! 15000 years ago. Been erratically warming ever since. The younger generations have been fitting that bell curve since before then.
i do not think that the present young generation is f-d, and I don't think any generation ever had been. I was born in 1950 into a middle class Canadian family and had everything I ever needed, and so did many of the boomers. Yet, the time was ripe for a rebellion of sorts. I was a part of the hippie generation and did it all and tried it all. I contemplated my navel for many years , and my elders could have called me a millennial at that time. The technological revolution has had such an amazing impact on all of us and I think it was Einstein that said the advent of all this technology would create a generation of idiots. Every generation has its tests and it is the responsibility of every thinking person to improve his world for the better. In Kabbalah it's called Tikkun loam, Hebrew for repair the world, on the microcosmic and macro cosmic scale. All these generational terms are a lot of BS. Live your life to,the fullest, raise your kids to respect all of the planet, love your neighbor, enjoy those around you and keep your mind on your goals. Don't fret the rest. Harold.
"Recently the media is on a hardcore "I hate millennials" trip."
I've noticed that in a few places too. And I've been watching the interaction between Mel and the other regulars with interest.
I'm 36, not a millennial, but my wife is. I think just like others have said, every generation has every range of ethics and what they value. Stereotyping is over rated...
Just this morning I had this article in my inbox...and having moved to the atlanta area two years ago, I can vouch for this. It is amazing the difference in service between Chick Fil-A and their local competition. The vast majority of their workforce is under 19, yet their service is top notch, and every interaction is professional. It's no coincidence that their profitable, fast growing company. Heck, I've wanted to park in their lot at quitting time and see if anyone was interested in cabinetmaking!
Here's the link:
https://www.entreleadership.com/articles/the-3-biggest-lies-about-working-with-te? et_cid=4386740&et_rid=0&linkid=The+3+Biggest+Lies+About+Working+With+Teen agers-btn-Link
Gary has a good point. I have observed similiar at In and Out Burger and Starbucks and Mimi's. IMO these companies have achieved this by training.
But the omnipresent training/culture comes from the government. The subject is exchange which is tacitly taught that one is entitled. This is the cruelest cut of all, i.e. enslavement.
To further separate the population into groups. There are some that are upbeat and extroverted who push/pull things/people up as their core purpose.
There are some who are downcast and introverted and who push/pull things/people down as their core purpose.
If you doubt this recall your best employees and your worst. And look at how many exceptions to this rule you see.
The trick is to hire out of the prior group. Unfortunately the reality is as Dave describes, the ones who are in the prior group create their own opportunities and generally move on but they are a pleasure to work with until they do.
The worst are apathetic the best are enthusiastic with 30 or so shades of grey in between. The Mendoza line is at their core are they trying to make things better or worse? IOW if you want to save yourself a bunch of headaches be careful who you hire.
But the overarching problem is that both groups have tended more towards the entitlement mentality, more so with the latter group.
BTW Boomers have this mentality as well, they are not as permeated with it. I see the public sector wallowing in their pensions, having performed jobs that would likely not exist if there was price discovery let alone with lavish benefits.
"...both groups have tended more towards the entitlement mentality" This seems to be the thought - (or gross over-simplification) - the younger the generation, the stronger the tendency towards entitlement.
Think about this in a historical context. 100 to 150 years ago, the US was a solid agrarian economy, with the 'family farm' as the independent unit that made up the main employment and main product of the Nation. Farming as the more developed extension of the hunter-gatherer society that we spent a few 100,000 years evolving within.
Working in a family farm or any farming situation, one learns quickly your place in the process, and that the quality of your abilities and efforts pay off in quality of life; floods, tornadoes, manipulated markets (things totally out of your control) notwithstanding.
Entitlement did not exist, unless it was the eldest son and the likelihood that he continue the endeavor.
Farming also implies a large measure of independence within given parameters. It is up to you and your associates - family - to find the best way to do this or that, and there is lots of freedom to fail. And there will be failures, just not catastrophic, one hopes ("don't put all your eggs in one basket").
Also, there is no management hierarchy to negotiate, no personalities to sidestep, no ladder to climb. Self-preservation was a real result of real work, not a strategy for what we call today 'survival.'
In today's group work environment, there is very little autonomous freedom or lateral slack. No room or tolerance for real failure. Hard work may or may not be recognized. Education may or may not be needed the way it was intended. Rewards may not be based upon the same ideals that farming has - the direct connection between effort and reward is not always present in 20th and 21st century workplaces.
Indeed, places with successful workforces (In & Out, Chik-Fil-A, etc) have done so by concentrating their efforts at connecting goals directly to rewards in a fair and open understanding, within the 3 ring binder environment.
And as sidebar entertainment, how many agrarian phrases are still used in today's business environment? Such as "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" or "Don't count your chickens until the eggs are hatched".
It's so hard sometimes to coin a sentiment. Then you are occasionally lucky enough to see it randomly in print.
A little long but worth it--to put into perspective it's from a book on evolutionary psychology.
"A note about Stereotypes
(...) we suggest that you cannot dismiss an observation by calling it a stereotype, as if that suddenly makes it untrue and thus unworthy of discussion and explanation. In fact, the opposite is the case. Many stereotypes are empirical generalizations with a statistical basis and thus on average tend to be true. The only problem with stereotypes and empirical generalizations is that they are not always true for all individual cases.
There are always individual exceptions to stereotypes. (...) The danger lies in applying the statistical generalizations to individual cases, which may or may not be exceptions.
Stereotypes also do not tell us how to behave or treat other people (or groups of people). Stereotypes are observations about the empirical world, not behavioral prescriptions. One may not infer how to treat people from empirical observations about them. Stereotypes tell us what groups of people tend to be or do in general; they do not tell us how we ought to treat them. Once again, there is no place for "ought" in science."
Pat... I didn't listen the first time, 'cause I was piss raving mad at you, admittedly. My bad!
You can call me a lot of things-- you can laugh at my work, you tell me my ideas stink, that I talk too much, whatever. I'll take it. But don't ever tell a French-Canadian that they don't work hard. It's like telling an American that they are not patriotic.
Guess you couldn't know that. And getting angry at someone in the internet is something I should know better about doing. That's okay--I make a complete fool of myself at least 5 times a day.
Ok I guess I will have to put a finer point on it.
believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.
"his pompous, entitled attitude"
Not necessarily that the entitled don't work hard as much as they don't focus on exchange. E.G. feeling that one is worth more than others for reasons best known to them i.e. subjective reasons but not objective reasons.
Your sentiment regarding the guy who tails off on the edgebander are understandable. But implying that you know all there is know is another matter.
"But implying that you know all there is know is another matter."
You gotta be kidding!! Do you have any idea how much you have to eat your ego to ask all the questions I ask to a panel of hardened trades boomers on the internet?? All to my profit for sure, but holy, sometimes you freaking gag on the humble sandwich.
I've been jokingly calling it it the woodworking equivalent of the compliment sandwich--the "insult sandwich":
Compliment sandwich: compliment, thing you have to improve on, compliment.
Insult sandwich: insult, information you need, insult.
I can't wait to be old enough to dish these out ;)
"That I tend to just get paid what I get paid and later find out I got ripped off because I never asked for more.
Did you know that unequal pay amongst gender stats disappear when you control for asking for more? Women don;t get paid less because society is evil, women get paid less because they don't negotiate pay. I don't want to be one of those women."
"I'm about 1 year into professional woodworking. That is not much. But now I'm neck deep into some very nice custom work, and I hear it's a fight to get me on projects"
"I heard today that I am faster and better then most people that have been there for years--from both the old dog and an ol dog finisher that is on a mission to train me to do the best finishing sanding prep in the world."
"I wouldn't even know what to pay me. I'm fast but I also have strange gaps in knowledge that require getting their most expensive guys to give me 10 minutes here and there."
"Dang rights I want fair pay. But where I differ from most is that I want actual fair. "
"Productivity is so well logged that I'd like to see my pay be based on that, and not the annoying song and dance of how ballsy I can be at a negotiation. If there are numbers, let's use them. Did the crew I ran make more then the crew Joe ran? Did I bang out those benches faster the Dave?"
"Things are going exceptionally well for me and I can get what I need without a WW hive mind "
I'm kind of slow on the uptake, where is the humble pie part?
First Mel, I have to hand it to you, you do introduce thought provoking topics. Although my awareness of you is relatively recent, the topics do seem to be centered around you. You ask for perspectives and ideas, and when you get responses you seem to interpret them personally, rather than from the commenter's point of view. I rarely get a sense of team player and what can you do to work within the company structure that was there long before you. And you seem focused on immediate feedback and reward. I don't sense patience to allow others to figure out how to work with your uniqueness, while trying to do all the other duties they had before they encountered you.
Stereotypes are helpful in my mind as a starting point for me to recognize individuality, if it exists. I do find people generally fit in ways and not in others. And I find your self centered focus and desire for immediate reward consistent, while your work ethic and willingness to work in the trades inconsistent with my view of millennials. Note I said my view, and I am only expressing an impression, not offering a judgment. Hopefully that is said respectfully enough not to raise your ire.
I will make one last observation. I have never in all my years on this site seen so many comments in topics interpreted or presented as "personal attacks" as those involving you. I have been blessed with the ability to consistently try to understand another person's perspective to see where they are coming from. Doing so helps put discussion in context. By walking in the other person's shoes regularly, instead of forcing them to wear mine, I often get further down the path.
"Just find the millenial title horrific--'lazy and entitled' sounds nothing short of a punishable sin".
Mel, you are making my point. You take it too personally. Every succeeding generation is accused of it by the previous one. There is truth in it. My father-in-law ( a member of Tom Brokaw's "Greatest Generation") tells us stories about hearing the same thing from his father. My father-in-law worked at least six days a week for 30 years. His parents worked 7 days a week 12 hours a day. The funny thing is this "lazy and entitled" from a family perspective is fostered by parents who want "their kids to have a better life than theirs." Technology has tremendously cut back physical labor and sped up obsolescence. I am a boomer (smack in the middle) and a DIYer. But Xes and millenials rarely have a clue about craftsmanship and quality - stuff is replaced because it becomes obsolete, or marketing so creates the newer is better mindset. My parents worked harder than I did - they did not have air conditioning and smog free air. But I also see parents that want their kids to enjoy their childhood while saddling them with college debt.
Pat's point is relative to the growing entitled attitude of society. Government is set on lowering the bar so the people are too fat and lazy to resist. Politicians are busy buying votes on the backs of those who pay increasing taxes for the "good of all"
Dunno how relevant it is but I was thinking about how child rearing practices have changed. How much safety and guardedness children get more and more of.
Which is funny in a way--lots of the same people that are super capable are capable because they were raised more cowboy, but do not raise their children as such, and complain that their children are not as capable as they are.
It blew my mind away when I heard that it is downright illegal to let a child under 12 go to the store alone. Keep wondering how truly helpful these practices are.
Exactly Mel! I was thinking some of the following during composition of my previous response.
My parents divorced and I was a latch key kid at the age of eight with a two year younger sister. Considered child abandonment today, but gave me a tremendous sense of responsibility. Imagine a nine year old coming home to a burglarized apartment, and thinking how much trouble he was going to be in.
Frankly, I think Dr Spock was the devil, and so contributed more than his share of this downward spiral in society we are on.
On the other hand, back then society and the legal system would not allow the unimaginable acts so common today. I am thankful I am not a parent.
How is stiffing the share holders who helped to create the company fair and balanced? I know it is against your religion Tim but private property is an immutable fact and is a cornerstone of any country.
A similiar thing happened in 2009 with the bondholders and GM, only they weren't allowed to sue. How fair and balanced was that? The rule of law is another corner stone of a country.
Oooo it gets even worse then Spock... Ever heard of Dr Sears and attachment parenting?
He's the go-to for your modern hippy-yuppy crunchy momma. His tenants involve wearing your child in a sling for most of your waking hours, then sleeping in the same bed as your child, cloth diapers, homemade organic food, nursing till 3 years old, never letting a child cry, never raising your voice.
I'm still waiting for the chapter on pooping rainbows, sweating roses and riding unicorns ;)
We have something similar here. No more counting score in sports and that typa garbage. Catering to the weakest link while holding back the stronger minds for the sake of equality.
It's for sure not doing anyone any favors. Humans are animals. Competition is in our DNA. It runs the entire world, from micro to macro. Pretending it doesn't exist in formative years sets you up for failure IMO.
"Oooo it gets even worse then Spock... Ever heard of Dr Sears and attachment parenting?" No, thankfully. But I sure see a lot of what you describe when I visit prospects in their home. I feel bad for those "lazy and entitled" children.
"Oooo it gets even worse when they enter the school system. Ever heard of Common Core?" Common Core is about understanding mathematical relationships. The problem with common core is it does not fit in the rote of education today, and teachers are not properly prepared to understand and teach it. I have a niece that will join the teaching ranks next year, and it is amazing how education is in it own world. Her strength is memorization, not logical progression. Because of this, she has excelled in school through the years. She will be the perfect teacher from the educational system's perspective, not so much for our society's future perspective.
My wife and I raised our three kids using Attachment Parenting methods. One is now at MIT, his twin brother has an IQ of less than 20, and my youngest son is about as smart as I am. The two neurotypical kids are both hard working, compassionate, intelligent children that any parent would be proud of. Their brother lives in a world of his own and will be worry for me until I die, and then a worry for his brothers. So I can see the effect of nature over nurture.
That said, my two normal kids had a different childhood than I did, and developed different skills. It's been a disappointment to me, a little bit, that neither of them developed any mechanical aptitude, like I did during a childhood spent fiddling with boats, bikes, and model airplanes. On the other hand, my oldest son taught himself to write computer code and has done incredibly well for himself with that skill. My youngest son is an extraordinarily diligent and persistent worker.
Both of them have much better networking skills than I do - not surprising, since they are in constant touch with their peers via cell phone and internet. It remains to be seen how their story will develop over the next 30 years or so.
Millennial can't be blamed for growing up in the world we gave them. It's a way different environment than the pre-internet days. I have high hopes that many of the ills of the past, like racism, bullying, homophobia, and glorification of violence, will continue to fade away.
Cool Paul--happy AP worked for you. Sure didn't for us! I gave it a fair crack. Turns out mine dislikes co sleeping and being carried around. Remarkably uncuddly from the bat. Ignoring a fit ends it in 2 minutes, the AP support stuff feeds it for hours.
Ever since I departed AP and went for good ol fashion behaviorism things are so much better. Guess it probably depends on the kid and the parents nature. Something about AP in our house looked like a cow in a tutu lol.
FB guy--legit question. Nope not number based. Just something I noticed. Maybe right or wrong.
*Personal observation warning*: you can get by in neuroscience by memorization, enough to pass a course quite well. Name the structures on the chart, etc. But you can also pass by understanding how concepts relate to each other.
You can memorize what LSD is made of and which part of your brain it acts on. You can memorize current theories on schizophrenia. But that won't necessarily give you what to need to understand and explain how the two work together to create the common myth that LSD can cause schizophrenia, and how in truth these two things behave together.
All parents want their kids to have a better life than they do/did, that is pretty natural. The bad news starts when the kids are about 22 and leaving college. They look around and view their parents position in life at are 45 as the starting point....meaning, where is my house and my Mersades, never realizing that their parents worked 20 years to get there. Kids have huge school loans, many for living beyond their means in college that they feel is excess baggage that the taxpayers should relieve them of.
Most kids today have never and will never give a moment of their time to their country as compensation for all that they inherit. This is the first generation that really has no idea of what the draft was or what military service entails. They think a few "thank you for your service" comments is government service. They have no stake in the country, other than what they can take from it.
Stereotypes come from some where, and usually not from fiction.
I for one am very glad my kids don't have to worry about the draft. As a nation we spend far too much of our resources fighting wars that have nothing to do with our national interest. We don't do a very good job of taking care of the vets who return from the war. That our kids see no reason to participate in this madness is a good thing, not a bad thing.
The 'greatest generation' came back from WW2 and voted themselves a pretty good ticket. The government helped out quite a bit for those returning GIs to buy the house they lived in. Many of them went to school on the GI bill. Those who didn't could find jobs building the interstate highways. There were plenty of jobs in the automobile & aviation industry because the government drove all the jeeps and excess airplanes off the end of an aircraft carrier so there wouldn't be a surplus.
These guys did fight a terrible war and did sacrifice a lot but they got a lot in return. It's not hard to understand why kid's today don't want to sacrifice. What are we offering them in return for this sacrifice?
School was practically free when I graduated from college. I never had to pay a student loan off. I could buy a house when I was 25 years old working wages as a cabinetmaker. Today you have to be a tech worker making a $100K a year to buy a house in the town you grew up in.
I think the millenials got screwed personally. We got all the sex and drugs and rock&roll. All they got was Facebook.
I wonder if the 'Millenial Malaise' ™ has any correlation with the music of today?
In the 70's we got to have Jimi Hendrix & Janis Joplin. Today's kids get the music Walt Disney studios picks for them. Used to be you had to earn your way to the stage but today all you need is some auto tune software and be good looking.
Imagine a Jimi & Janis 'Christmas Classics' album........
I'd be pissed off too. We got good music. Our father's got to stop having artillery rained on their head. To them life was pretty good if you join a bowling league and hang with your buddies. The Millenials got to listen to Kanye. If you've never eaten a chocolate chip cookie even gravy train would taste pretty good.
A few if us have some things up our sleeve for entertainment... Think Burning Man ;)
But the lot is for sure in the land if Kanye, car loans and cubicles.
I'm not yet convinced it's a huge treat-- just that it's safe and conservative on the surface. But looking at obesity and mood disorders sometimes I wonder. If an air conditioned car and stuffing your face is your idea of a good time I don't think you are really living.
Any big ideas on how to shift things a bit? Start a war and reinstate draft? ;)
You don't need to start a war, but military type service does force one to grow up and take responsibility. I am 66, I look at what I was doing at 25, and what today's kids are doing at 25, and maybe Facebook is all they can handle. Perhaps they need to turn off the electronic toys and learn to take charge...at least of their own lives. I am a vet, and was never a fan of the military, but I do see the positive effect of the structured if not forced responsibility.
Surprising Mel is the only one who apparently hears my message... sigh
Subsidized everything, 99 week unemployment, 10 million additional people on permanent disability, Calif has 1/3 of the nations welfare recipients, corporate welfare/bailouts, 1/3 of the federal budget is borrowed, student loans as ubiquitous as liars loans for housing, everyone passes, section 8 housing, WIC, etc., etc.
Gee I wonder why people are becoming less and less responsible.
My theory is that people do what they have to do, if the government does more and more for you then you don't do for yourself.
I have the solution. Knock your girlfriend up and get married at 18 with a father that wouldn't loan you money for baby formula. Get a BS in business in four years while working and raising a family. That worked for me. Necessity is the mother of invention. Always was and always will be. Millenials just need more unplanned pregnancies to straighten them out. :-)
Mel, Burning Man was started by us Boomers. And the term is not a negative one; business was booming and after all those men being overseas, there were lots of babies to follow:) IMHO, Thgings started going downhill after Woodstock. Monterey was the beginning of a harder time.
Burning Man trickled down to tons of mountain woods events in BC. I happened to be there a lot because it turns out most hippies don't know how to distribute electrical, it turns out... shocking, no?
So I'm with Glen. Hijack all Trojan and Alless trucks. Give free kegs at sorority events. Cause Gawd knows nothing b slaps you as much as being a parent. People do it around 30 now. No wonder we look annoyingly free at 25 ;)
It itself has. It's trickle down effects hasn't yet.
So I got a big ol question...tread nicely please, it really is a big ol question.
If we were all raised by boomers, who were raised by capable people, who taught them a lot, and then boomers rejected the establishment, and raised us millennials as pansies.... I get that. I see how it it happens. Misguided parents led by intentions and love. Good stuff gone wrong. Happens easy.
Where I get stuck is the tone of "your generation is useless and going down the drain because you are lazy" typa talk.
To be honest it feels pretty unfair--"we'll teach you nothing about the real world, then reproach you of not knowing the real world".
The only reason I know machinery, repairs, exchange, hard work and satisfaction, all grass roots, is because a same-aged immigrant taught it all to me. At 22. Despite the fact that I was raised by a person that knew all about machinery, repairs, exchange, hard work and satisfaction, all grass roots, but had no patience to teach it.
This is purely a sentiment--but doesn;t mean it isn't valid... sometimes I wonder what the heck boomers want besides It All.
Please correct me nicely if I am misguided--this is sentiment, and a question. Not a reproach.
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Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines
Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
Thread Related File Uploads
Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .FLV .MP4 (Image Upload Tips) If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
The editors, writers, and staff at WOODWEB try to promote safe practices.
What is safe for one woodworker under certain conditions may not be safe
for others in different circumstances. Readers should undertake the use
of materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB after considerate evaluation,
and at their own risk.