Safety Speed Cut Thermwood Corporation ECabinet Systems

Cabinetmaking

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Insert Shaper Tooling

2/3/16       
Bill Hagers

Good morning everyone. I'm trying to do some research on insert shaper tooling and not turning up great results. As always it's best to ask around. We currently use brazed tooling for all of our C&S door profiles but I'm heavily leaning towards insert for a variety of reasons but only if it is cost effective.

Brazed tooling is expensive and the quality of the joints is a function of how many times they have been resharpened, and the replacement/retipping cost of 6 piece sets gets very expensive if you run a lot of material. Ever since we have switched some of our profiles to insert knives I have wanted to change our C&S over.

My problem is most of the name brands including freeborn are expensive, and you would have to replace the inserts a significant amount of times before it is most cost effective than say a standard freeborn 6 piece kit. The knives I have seen on average are $30+ each, so in many cases it's 6 knives for C&S. I've seen some new heads from infinity but they don't allow glass door profiles which we do a lot of, and I'm not interested in fiddling with a rabbeting cutter and all that fuss, I've been down that road.

Any input would be helpful. Insert tooling has its advantages beyond initial cost, but if it's exponentially more expensive from the gate it's really hard to consider it.

2/3/16       #2: Insert Shaper Tooling ...
dustin orth

Website: http://customwoodmontrose.com

I have multiple sets of Byrd tool insert cope and stick sets. As far as cost goes, not sure of much of a comparison. The insert sets are just over 300 per head with the first set of tips. Depending on what you are milling, length of cuts before tip replacement is needed varies, but I'm getting somewhere between 10 and 20 thousand lineal feet of stick cutting before they are dull. I don't know of any brazed cutter that could even come close to that and Freeborne are some that these replaced. Nice thing is the tips are pretty easy to change and no fiddling with shims after a sharpening. Cope knives seem to last forever, think I have replaced 2 sets in maybe 6 years. We also do mostly Knotty Alder with some other woods mixed in. I also have the panel raising cutters and prefer them over brazed tooling as well. Overall I would recommend going insert. Your choice.

2/4/16       #3: Insert Shaper Tooling ...
Dan cook

What about inserts when using composite materials? We sometimes use mdf for the center panel when doing painted doors? How do inserts work for these materials?

2/4/16       #4: Insert Shaper Tooling ...
Chuck Hicks  Member

Website: http://www.southeasttool.com

Bill,

Insert tooling is definitely the way to go. The grade of carbide on the inserts is better because it does not have to be brazed in, this means longer life and better cuts over brazed tooling. The down time is basically none, change the inserts on the cutter and you are back running. Plus, the pattern stays the same unlike when the brazed cutters get sharpened.

Dan, The solid carbide inserts are definitely the way to go on MDF.

Catalog

2/4/16       #5: Insert Shaper Tooling ...
Mike Fuson

I considered going with insert tooling but didn't. I can't speak to the quality of them since I've not used them. I've been using Grizzly's cope and stick industrial cutters and one of their five wing raised panel cutters. $200 for the C&S set and $86 I think for the panel cutter. I get an unbelievably smooth cut. I couldn't possibly tell you how many kitchens I've done with these cutters. At that price and for as long as they last I'm not even going to have them sharpened, I'll just buy new ones. I was using freeborn raised panel cutters before and they didn't cut as well as the Grizzly and was about 4X the money. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Leave it to me to go against the grain I guess...hehehe

2/7/16       #7: Insert Shaper Tooling ...
Larry

Many companies can provide different grades of carbide inserts tailored to the material being cut. For our regular production work we use inserted, for one off jobs we may get brazed and just throw it away when dull.


Post a Response
  • Notify me of responses to this thread
  • Subscribe to email updates on this Forum
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Limtech Industries, Inc. Lamello