Safety Speed Cut Thermwood Corporation ECabinet Systems

Cabinetmaking

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Tall oversized raised panels

3/17/17       
Marsay Member

I have to make 12 feet high raised panels and am worried about wood movement and installaion method.
Nine panels will be installed against a wall, side by side.
The wall is a U shape and so there will be a one-panel return on each ends.

Stiles/rails: Width 3-1/4" and 1-3/4" thickness
Raised panels: Width 30" and 1" thickness

I intend to make the entire panels entirely out of solid african mahogany as I work faster with solid than veneer work. I will ensure the center raised panels are free floating (I'm thinking of 3/4" groves all around).

WOOD MOVEMENT ISSUE
I'm worried about stiles and the center raised panels from warping.
Is there anything I should be doing to prevent the panels from warping?

INSTALL ISSUE
These panels will be pretty heavy. While I won't be installing them (GC is), I would like some tips on how to fabricate the back to allow smooth installation and safe attachment.

Feedback from experienced woodworkers are much appreciated.
Thank you as always for providing your advice!


View higher quality, full size image (834 X 640)

3/17/17       #2: Tall oversized raised panels ...
rich c.

Quarter sawn wood only. Must have the same amount of finish on the back side of the panel as the front.

3/17/17       #3: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Leo G

I think you are setting yourself up for failure. 30" panels are going to move, a good amount too. Solid stiles and rails are fine, the panel should be a more stable material.

3/17/17       #4: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Adam

African mahogany is not stable. If we are talking about the random stuff we get in the States. It works terribly. The grain is squirrely and tearout is common from jointing/planing.

30" in width is huge for any raised panel. It will most certainly warp. Potentially with enough force to tear the profile off the rails.

I wouldn't trust any gc to install such a project, unless I personally knew the installer/trim carpenters.

This project has nightmare written all over it. Take control or you will regret it.

You will have a much easier time using a piece of sapelle ply or mdf. Running the raised profile and glueing it on to the panel.

The sapelle will look much nicer. African is ugly in my experience.

I would try to talk them into 30" x 6' with a middle rail.

3/18/17       #5: Tall oversized raised panels ...
door shop guy

African Mahogany is the worst wood i have ever used. I tell my customers it will warp and no warranty at all.
Have you looked at Red Grandis? Its a lot more stable.
If you do the job in African tell them NO warranty!

3/18/17       #6: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Marsay Member

Thank you for your replies and valid advice!
I am now considering Sapele and using plywood for the center piece of the raised panel (frame it with solid sapele, mitre joints). I will definitely using quarter sawn wood for the stiles and rails.

I may add rigid battens on the back of the center raised panels to keep them from warping/sagging as 10 feet is a long piece..

I'm still not too sure how to fabricate the back. Installer and I spoke and it seems that we have a consensus on gluing the back of the rails/stiles to the wall PLUS secure the top rail and bottom rails to the studs using screws (covering the screw holes with base and crown moulding).

3/18/17       #7: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Marsay Member

I looked into Sapele veneer sheets. I plan to adhere the veneer sheets onto plywood. I like the look of plain sawn sapele (I feel that the ribbon is a bit too much for this project).

However there is always the concern of color matching veneer and solid wood. I'm going to stain it so I really hope the color will come out okay and not too different..


View higher quality, full size image (800 X 533)

3/19/17       #9: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Adam

That pic you have is way easier to fabricate and install. It uses almost 4x8 sheets of cherry ply. They took flat stock and pocket screwed large frames and screwed them to wall. Throw the ply panels in and then glue/nail the mitered trim to hold the panel in place.

Your raised panel style is typically assembled in large movable sections and screwed to the wall top and bottom. The panel is trapped in the stiles/rails like a cabinet door. I've never seen 12' walls done that way.

3/19/17       #10: Tall oversized raised panels ...
David Thiessen  Member

Website: dtwoodworker.houzz.com

You said you are going to veneer to a plywood substrate. Have you considered using mdf for a more stable substrate? If you use plywood you will have to lay it up perpendicular to the grain which means you will have to join 3 sheets together to get 12' high.

3/19/17       #11: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Marsay Member

I will build them using freefloating raised panels slotted into the rails and stiles.

Yes I did think of using MDF panels. Was just a bit worried about bowing of MDF panels since these are very tall (the raised panel part is about 10 feet high). I may be able to purchase a plywood with MDF layer. That could work? I wasnt aware that plywood and veneer have to be attached perpendicular. thanks for the heads up.

3/19/17       #12: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Larry

A 2nd for MDF panel stock. Do the mitered frame around the MDF then veneer both sides. Then raise the panels. You can even out the stain color by using a wash coat then a scuff, then stain. The sapele we've been getting has been very nice. Finish the backs also.

3/19/17       #13: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Gary Balcom

"I intend to make the entire panels entirely out of solid african mahogany as I work faster with solid than veneer work."

Huge mistake. Follow the good advice you've already received in this thread. IMO, custom veneered MDF panels are the highest quality product for this application.

3/20/17       #14: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Marsay Member

I'm so grateful for all your insight. I've done a bit more research too and with all your feedback I should make the raised panels out of MDF + veneer and framed with solid wood (mitre joint).

is there another way to equalize the MDF besides centering them? applying veneers on the back also could be costly and time consuming....

3/20/17       #15: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Marsay Member

is there another way to equalize the MDF besides attacjing veneers on both sides? applying veneers on the back also could be costly and time consuming....

3/20/17       #16: Tall oversized raised panels ...
William

You've gotten some excellent advice that has essentially saved your ass from what would have been a disaster based on your lack of knowledge/experience with this type of work. If you can't get your head out of the cheap, corner cutting mentality this job will turn into an expensive dumpster fire.

"Applying veneers on the back could be costly and time consuming"...not exactly. How much would it cost you to redo the whole job due to lack of experience and poor technique?

Based on all of your comments I would strongly suggest you pass this job to a shop that knows how to execute and bid this type of work.

3/20/17       #17: Tall oversized raised panels ...
David R Sochar Member

I am inclined to agree with William's response.

I'll ask the $64,000 question: What glue will you use, and how will you apply the veneers?

Just because someone asks does not mean you are obligated to do the work. It is ok to sub out panels like this - you are no less a woodworker. If you are still unsure, then pass it on.

Nothing personal - it is a good lesson to learn.

3/20/17       #18: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Marsay Member

I'm a solid wood furniture maker so I really appreciate your feedback and advice on veneering this job.

Things are actually a little more complicated than the information I jotted here.

My client is very picky and wanted all solid wood, doesn't want any visible seams, and the stained color has to be uniform. Since Im more familiar with solid wood i was going to go the solid wood route but somewhere in my mind I was concerned about wood movement. Veneer work is not my strength but would very much like to expand my knowledge in this area. I understand that sometimes it does mean making mistakes which I am willing to take responsibility for. I appreciate that you've all "saved my ass". Thanks guys.

As some of you rightfully suggested, I will seriously consider subbing out this work, if timeline allows. **Where I live, wood shops are inundated with work and there is a lack of wood shops.

3/20/17       #19: Tall oversized raised panels ...
William

I certainly understand your interest in taking on new work and expanding your skill set, but a lot can go wrong veneering large panels like these, especially if you don't have much experience or the right equipment. Even more of a concern with very picky clients. Better to gain a little veneering experience with smaller panels and less on the line.

You can also have another shop veneer the panels and you can finish the rest of the job.

There's a consistent attitude among consumers that solid wood is always far superior to veneer in any application. What they don't realize is some of the finest woodwork in the world and throughout history has been executed with veneer. I use these as teachable moments to educate clients on the virtues of solid wood and the benefits of veneer. Some clients are very picky and ignorant to your craft. You're the expert, very important that you dictate how a project is conceived and guide them to the best answer. If they stand firm and demand solid wood in applications that are precarious either decline the job or make it very clear there will be a written contract with no warranty and an explanation why.

3/20/17       #20: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Larry

If you haven't worked in an AWI shop you may want to research their requirements for premium grade panel work. They will not accept solid lumber for that level of work. See my original post here, that would meet AWI premium grade if well executed. My shop was certified to AWI premium. Farm out those panels if you aren't experienced veneering. Veneering the back is done with a lesser quality veneer and pressed at the same time as the face! It is not a cost, it is a cover your a$$ issue and meeting grade requirements. Even if the customer is willing to sign off on solids, it is your reputation that will be hit.

3/21/17       #21: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Adam

Unless cost is not an issue, I would convince them that they can save money by making a few changes.

First try your best to convince them to switch the design to that pic you posted. Flat panels with a mitered moulding.

Second make the panels shorter. The old 1/3 2/3 design works well. 4' lower panel, 8' upper panel. The material cost will go down, because of the 8' sheet size. Also switch from 30" panels to 24" for the same reason. 30" x 12' panels are a ridiculous waste of material.

Have a ply shop layup 4' x 8' sheets of mdf core Sapelle panels. They can put a cheaper veneer on the back side. They make panels everyday. You will not compete with their quality or price.

Its not like a 30" x 12' panel is normal. In the past with solid wood it is not possible. If an Architect has design this, he will not be aware of the limitations of the materials. They will also not realize that has not been done before.

You can also scare them a bit, with the old I won't warranty this work because of their design decisions.

3/21/17       #22: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Marsay Member

Hi William, thanks for all your insight. It's been a great learning experience for me. I have been reading up on the art of veneering. Having been formally trained in solid wood furniture making, I am relearning the craft of wood thanks to you and others on this site.

In the past I have used veneers but I think I've been miraculously "lucky" to have had no problems. I've made a few 4' x 6' slat walls using veneers (they were made with carefully laid out braces on the back. I have also made a few other works including cabinet doors, and interior doors.

It's been a learning curve for me to take the lead and guide customers to the best method/design. I now have a few additional contract language add to my contract!!

I am in the process of looking for a well equipped shop with plenty of veneer work experience.

Thank you again for your valuable advice.


View higher quality, full size image (625 X 1009)

3/21/17       #23: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Marsay Member

Hi Larry

I reviewed the AWI standards. Thank you for sharing. It's very useful.

I am looking for an experienced shop to take care of just the raised panels. I have some experience in veneer work but not to the extent of some of you. First off I didn't realize the back has to be veneered (and at the same time). Doing both sides could be challenging when I don't have all the right equipment. It's a whole new world for me!

Thank you for your valuable advice and additional information.

3/21/17       #24: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Marsay Member

Hi Adam

I'm loving your suggestion of telling them "I won't warranty this work because of their design decisions." Something I also learnt during my research related to this job is that if any of the woodwork is placed in open air or near the ocean, there shouldn't be any warranty provided. I have been doing a lot of ocean front work so that's been eye opening for me.

Money is not an issue actually. I may have sounded that way but all I was doing was keeping to my original budget I allocated for the project. If need be, I am able to charge my client more.

I like the idea of using smaller flat panels with mitred mouldings. Definitely suggesting for next projects , early on in the project.

Thank you for your two cents and insight!

3/22/17       #25: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Marsay Member

I wanted to share what I found out today. I inquired two reputable wood shops that work with major General contractors (they take care of millwork for high end condos, hotels and department stores). Both said that they would usually not veneer the back of the panel. One said they can veneer the back if I desired it. They both also said they would use a combination stock (plywood+MDF). I'm just surprised to find different answers..... :/

3/22/17       #26: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Leo G

Personally I would have used a veneered particleboard for the main area of the panel and wrapped that with the same species with the wrap being about a 1/16" oversized so the panel cutter wouldn't reach the particleboard core.

Do a slight bevel by hand after it's milled and it would hardly be noticed. That way it would be something you could do in house and it would be more than stable. It would have veneer on both sides already.

3/22/17       #27: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Marsay Member

Actually, one fabricator said they could also use "regrind" plywood (= phelonic plywood often used for melamine).

3/22/17       #28: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Marsay Member

Hi Leo, thank you for your input. I checked out the AWI standards, and they do include particle boards like you suggest. I will discuss this option too with our local fabricator.


View higher quality, full size image (960 X 455)

3/22/17       #29: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Marsay Member

This is how I imagine the panels would be made.


View higher quality, full size image (830 X 361)

3/22/17       #30: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Leo G

My thoughts of how it would be put together.


View higher quality, full size image (2035 X 800)

3/22/17       #31: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Marsay Member

Hi Leo, thanks for the image. Yes, I was initially thinking of making them exactly that way.

But then I was thinking of how to minimize the core-stock/solid wood seam.

3/23/17       #32: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Matt Calnen

I make mine by adding the wood first to the core material. Trim or sand it flush then venner both sides. Then raise the panel profile so the venner to wood joint is hardly noticeable. I would recommend unibond for large panels over venner pva glues. To much water to add to a large area.


View higher quality, full size image (4032 X 3024)

3/23/17       #33: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Matt Calnen

I make mine by adding the wood first to the core material. Trim or sand it flush then venner both sides. Then raise the panel profile so the venner to wood joint is hardly noticeable. I would recommend unibond for large panels over venner pva glues. To much water to add to a large area.


View higher quality, full size image (4032 X 3024)

3/24/17       #34: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Adam

I would have somebody lay it up mdf or particleboard. Whatever that shop likes to use . Mill up the solid stock like Leo, except I would put a tongue on it. Groove the panel after cutting it to size with a router.

You could use biscuits, but I hate biscuits. Splines are okay, but its just one more thing to cut, not fit properly and doesn't add any benefits over t&g

3/24/17       #35: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Matt Calnen

Adam, it's funny your comment on the speed of spline vs. t&g. I do it that way because the technology in my shop is low tech. A Freeborn cutter is exactly the rite size for 1/4" mdf, which is what I use for a spline. It makes it so there's only one setup and no fitting a tounge to a grove. Just run both parts, rip some spline stock and assemble. Different shops have different tooling and what works best for one shop might not work for another, but at the end of the day, as long as quality is equal, efficiency will make the difference

3/24/17       #36: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Matt Calnen

Adam, it's funny your comment on the speed of spline vs. t&g. I do it that way because the technology in my shop is low tech. A Freeborn cutter is exactly the rite size for 1/4" mdf, which is what I use for a spline. It makes it so there's only one setup and no fitting a tounge to a grove. Just run both parts, rip some spline stock and assemble. Different shops have different tooling and what works best for one shop might not work for another, but at the end of the day, as long as quality is equal, efficiency will make the difference

3/24/17       #37: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Larry

Good practice would be to balance the face by using a back veneer. Unbalanced construction will encourage cupping.

3/28/17       #38: Tall oversized raised panels ...
Bill Hagar

I've typically done these how Matt suggested with good results but in two variations.

1. Get pre-veneered MDF both sides, rim miter and raise. This is particularly challenging to not burn the veneer when you sand flush unless the veneer is thick, I would not recommend you try this on your first job or at least practice with smaller panels until you dial in your process.

2. Rim miter to raw MDF, then lay-up the panels, then raise them. This is far easier and provides a much cleaner look. You also hide gluelines and squeezeout if you're going to stain them, there are far more advantages. If you don't have the capability to lay them up take them to someone who does or invest in a press if it's a large job.

You mentioned local shops not wanting to add a backing veneer, they clearly don't have the experience and I would steer clear. If you ever layup sheets without properly balancing the substrate they will warp, almost always. The only time I get away with this is when I do things like bench tops but otherwise always a backer veneer. As others stated you can get just about anything, the cheapest veneer you can find and it will provide the counteracting forces needed to stabilize a laminated substrate.

And remember, keep it simple. As others stated go to nominal numbers, 30" is a huge waste. Tab up some quick numbers and present it to the client, and watch as they go for the economical option most of the time.


Post a Response
  • Notify me of responses to this thread
  • Subscribe to email updates on this Forum
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Limtech Industries, Inc. Lamello