Message Thread:
3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Production
1/30/14
I'd like to know what is the best currently available way to use something like Inventor or Solid Works to design and PRODUCE cabinetry. Opinions welcome.
I've been playing with Inventor for a couple of months and have been very impressed. I have designed some specialty one off curved hoods with success and have been test building parametric cabinets with some success. The shop drawings are great with easy to produce sections, parts list, notation etc..
I would need a solid way to go to CNC. Anyone using Router Cim with Inventor and would like to weigh in on your experience?
1/30/14 #3: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Hi Steve.
You should check out Pathfinder 3D. It's a plugin for Solidworks that extracts all the individual parts for the CNC as layered DXF files. All the geometry for toolpaths will be in the files.
From there you can import into your CAM package or if you want an easier solution you can get the PBE (powered by Enroute) version and generate g-code without leaving the Solidworks window.
I have used Solidworks for a few years to design store fixtures & custom millwork. I have only really dabbled with Inventor but they seem to be fairly comparable products. Pathfinder really unlocks the potential of Solidworks.
I believe you could import all your Inventor parts and Solidworks would reconstruct all the featured of the model using feature recognition.
Take a look at their website and feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
pathfinder3d.com
Regards
Richard
1/31/14 #4: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Thanks Richard,
I will take a look. I am not so far along with Inventor that I couldn't change gears.
If it were to be able to export the DXF with the layers named to conform with our Thermwood that would be all I would need. If I have properly layered DXFs the CNC controller will nest and write the code.
Thanks,
Steve
1/31/14 #5: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
The Layer names are defined by the user so you can set them up to match whatever your Thermwood requires.
If you want you can send me a list of the layer names required by your Thermwood Control and a sample Inventor file (as an IGS) along with the 2D drawings and I can generate the output files for you and you can see how it performs.
Thanks
Richard
1/31/14 #6: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
If you have a thermwood, why don't you use ecabinets?
1/31/14 #7: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Website: http://hightechcabinets.com
I have to agree with Ken. eCabinets and Thermwood are made for each other and you can design almost anything with eCabinets. Here is one of our vent hoods designed using eCabinets to be cut on a CS-43. It uses blind dado construction for part positioning, all parts have assembly marks so there is no confusing where they go and the corner braces and 1/4" skin are cut with a V bit to create the miters.
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2/1/14 #8: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Kerry,
Very impressive. Based on my observations of your post here and over at Thermwood I would say you are THE guru of eCabinets.
At your skill level I would be curious of how long a "one-off" original hood like the one you posted would take you. Any idea?
My number one reason for wanting to find something new is that I find the line drawings that eCabinets produces, and which I need, to be unacceptable. Hence, I have been producing 2D AutoCAD drawings for use as shop and client drawings and then a second person who has left the company used ecabinets to generate code and cutlist, etc.
So, it is past time I better learn eCabinets better which still leaves me with a two step process OR I find a process in which my drawings for shop and client contain the data to do the same. The process we have been doing also leaves room for translation errors in addition to taking longer than I think it ought to take. The more customized the product, the more pronounced the problem.
Has the line drawings of eCabinets advanced more than when I last used it? Kerry, could you share some of your line drawings?
This weekend, as a test, I am trying to complete some Inventor drawings of closets (including a few euro chest of drawers) which I will then export to AutoCAD and run through Smartlister to hopefully get DXF files Thermwood will nest. Friday after loading Longbow to my computer I got smartlister, I think, to run properly and it seemed to process the first parts with proper DXFs (I did not cut any, but plan to on Monday).
2/1/14 #9: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
HI Kerry, HI Steve,
Yes, e-cabs is still lacking in line drawing and shop drawings. Cant really produce anything a architect will accept for commercial submittal. Cant print to scale,cuts are just to much work, floor plans
are not acceptable. The Guys are great,there service is second to none, love my machine, e-cabs is so great in some ways, but lacking in things needed for commercial work.Wishing for some major
changes in the line drawing area, but I believe they would have to really start over and I don't see that happening.
2/1/14 #10: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
You do some great work with e cabinets Kerry. I have spent a lot less time with it than you I am sure but in my experience it's a lot easier to produce work like this in Solidworks. I also find it a lot better at creating the detailed shop drawings required for l assembling complex product projects.
The biggest problem I have had with Solidworks in the past is getting the parts out to the CNC. With Pathfinder that's no longer an issue all the parts are easily exported.
I would recommend taking a look at add well as Smartlister. Looks like you're weekend has filled up!
Enjoy!
Richard
2/2/14 #11: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Hi Gentlemen,
Since I'm learning and experimenting anyways I drew a hood similar to some we build (don't have the details at home with me so I made up the details) and not that unlike Kerry's. My proportions are off but I wanted to see how long it would take in Inventor. Mechanically speaking I was able to draw just as we build. For example the corner ribs are formed by a pair of opposing beveled ribs which gives a nice flat spot for the curved sheet goods to rest. It took me about 4 hours as I am still learning how the program works. I believe with experience it could be done in a much shorter period of time.
Oh, one thing I did not include was the mortise and tenons like Kerry used which I would if I was building this item. That I have practiced with and could add pretty quickly.
So it seems for design software I am looking at:
Top Solid Wood which includes woodworking tools and CAM but small U.S. user base on which to lean for assistance.
Solid Works and Pathfinder3D with Enroute
Inventor and Router Cim
Inventor and AutoCAD and Smartlister.
I'm guessing there are few if any in our industry who have hands on experience in more than one of the above but this direction seems like the future for shops of any size. Any one have comparison thoughts?
Anyone know how to get part names from Inventor to Smartlister CNC export files?
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2/2/14 #12: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Website: http://WWW.SHORELINEPARAMETRICS.COM
Very nice Kerry!
I've been working pretty much full time with SolidWorks since 2001 (especially for high-end stairs and projects with compound curved work) and I can say SW output to CNC (especially 5-axis) has very been clean.
Before that I'd used CV and CW a lot and the age old problem was that (for the high-end market) the drawings (from CV or CW) were never quite adequate for submission or installation and generating the unusual items were neither easy nor practical (in CW or CV).
I didn't have a cabinet drawing to use as a sample, so I've attached an old job of a 3D curved door generated in SolidWorks as a custom example.
The point is, IF Pathfinder manages to live up to their claim AND be able to model the unusual elements, I think it might possibly "tick all the boxes". Does anyone here use it? Or be able to give insight?
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2/3/14 #13: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Website: http://bsgcreative.com
We use the Pathfinder 3D plugin in conjunction with solidworks. For us, it has been a revelation. Prior to pathfinder, we were very laboriously pulling apart dxf files to arrange them in nests. The pathfinder plugin in conjunction with enroute is pretty amazingly automatic. For some complex parts, there is a little manual work in pathfinder and sometimes in enroute, but for the most part the ATP module just delivers nicely nested ready to machine sheets. We also use it with our Biesse multiaxis machine for edge drilling etc.
2/3/14 #14: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Website: http://www.silverstarindustries.com
SolidWorks with Pathfinder is a very powerful tool. If you are designing in SolidWorks and cutting your parts on a CNC machine, you definitely need to try Pathfinder. Here at Silver Star Industries we create highly custom store fixtures and displays. We have 4 CNC machines. All of our parts are created using SolidWorks and Pathfinder. It is amazingly fast to go from a 3D model to gcode. It allows you to focus on designing in 3D rather than programming each part. Most parts are 100% automatic, but you also have the ability to add custom machining if necessary.
Also, Pathfinder can be used with many CAM systems. So if you have a good CAM system in place such as RouterCIM, AlphaCAM, MasterCAM, CADcode, etc, it is likely that you can continue to use it. The beauty of this is that you can still use a CAM system that has been optimized over the years for wood sheetgoods, and still have the tight connection to the 3D model that you need.
http://www.pathfinder3d.com
2/4/14 #15: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Chris and Richard,
Solidworks and Pathfinder sound interesting. It sounds like getting to the CNC is good. A couple of questions:
Can you share any drawing samples that show shop and presentation output from Solidworks? I'm curious about the drawings as this was the weak spot for eCabinets.
How is it at outputting excel list of door and drawer box sizes? That's my other concern.
2/4/14 #16: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Hi Steve.
I am away from my computer at the moment so I cannot post any examples but take a look at the drawing Rufus posted. You can see that Solidworks does a good job of producing 2D shop or submittal drawings.
All the title blocks, dimension styles etc. Are fully customizable. Section and detail views can be generated very easily. Once the 3D model is created it's very quick to layout your drawings from it. Any changes to the model will be reflected in the drawings.
As for excel files for doors and drawers, I have not used that. However a cutlist of all the parts in the assembly is created. This can have filters applied to it so you could configure it to filter out just the door parts. The cutlist can then be printed or exported to a CSV file.
2/4/14 #17: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Creating drawings in SolidWorks is very fast and easy. Any changes in the 3D automatically updates in the drawings as well. I have attached a rough sample of some assembly instructions. You can make them as detailed as you want to of course...this is just a random sample. Of course creating shop drawings for approval is also very good. I have attached a shop drawing as an example as well (i cut off the title block). I think the documentation side of SolidWorks is very strong. This is not a part of Pathfinder, it just comes with SolidWorks. You can also create quick renderings using PhotoView 360, which are nice for presentation. PhotoView comes with SolidWorks Pro.
Pathfinder allows you to export a cutlist for to excel automatically. You can set up a specific category for doors and drawers, and create a cutlist automatically for each. You can also export a full cutlist for your assembly for a panel saw to cut. The format of the csv file can also be customized.
Click the link below to download the file included with this post.
Central_Display_Fixture_Rev1a_2.pdf
Click the link below to download the file included with this post.
cashwrap_2.PDF
http://www.pathfinder3d.com/videos
2/6/14 #20: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
You might want to look at Auto Cad in conjunction with Smartlister.
I find easier than SW because you don't have to deal with the parametrics which makes SW a pain for revisions and copying. In other words parametrics get in the way more than they help.
Also SW doesn't have a command line so it takes longer to do a drawing.
2/6/14 #21: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Pat,
How do you get part names in smartlister? do you have them in autocad somehow and smartlister picks them up?
How do you handle material thickness variations in cabinet designs? One day a plywood is .725 then the next it is .690.
Steve
2/6/14 #22: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Website: http://www.customcabinetree.com/
Pathfinder is a great add in for SolidWorks. We use it for our CNC but also use it for cutlist, hardware sheets, purchasing, TigerStop & with it exporting data in cvs format you can bring it into excel and make great graphs with it. The tech support is also very helpful.
2/6/14 #23: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
You cannot handle labeling through Smartlister. It would be handled by cam software.
I don't know how that would be handled with SW either?
The thickness would not be adjusted automatically as with a cabinet program that is globally parametric. Usually I would handle this at the machine as it is not a frequent problem for me. Guys who use a blind dado system can useTenonCam.
I don't know how SW would handle this either?
I would not consider either program for regular cabinets. MV or CV are better suited for that.
2/6/14 #24: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
I figured I would need the CAM package for Nesting, ATP etc. (ex: Silidworks + Pathfinder3D +enroute) I would definitely need to know what cabinet the parts go to and hopefully tell the shop what the part is. Some nest have hundreds and hundreds of parts.
I would assume the cabinet part names would carry over into Pathfinder and Enroute. Anyone? Yes, No?
When I was playing with Inventor I set up an external excel sheet with global variables for material thickness and other global variables such as standard door gaps and tenon gaps and had the cabinet sizing parts from that. Looks like the guys at Pathfinder are doing similar with material thicknesses, grain direction, A and B sided designations.
I understand what you are saying about the standard cabinet software but it's not perfect for what we are doing either. Weird mix of standard and custom stuff.
I know everybody's needs are different and I appreciate the many points expressed. Great forum. I'll look at the tenoncam as we do blind dado.
2/6/14 #25: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Steve,
Yes, the SolidWorks part name, assembly name, and notes all are passed to the label in the CAM system. You can also pass any custom properties from the SolidWorks part file as well.
Regarding material thickness, you can set up a global variable in SolidWorks to control that, and have all your dados adjust. You can make your assemblies as parametric as you want to. Or if you are doing a one off and don't want to worry about it, you don't have to.
2/6/14 #26: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
"Yes, the SolidWorks part name, assembly name, and notes all are passed to the label in the CAM system. You can also pass any custom properties from the SolidWorks part file as well."
Is that out for the BOM in SW?
"Regarding material thickness, you can set up a global variable in SolidWorks to control that, and have all your dados adjust. You can make your assemblies as parametric as you want to. Or if you are doing a one off and don't want to worry about it, you don't have to."
That would be tedious.
Steve make sure you watch the vendor do this in action or you will likely be disappointed.
MV or CV have hundreds of man years of development to accomplish this sort of thing through a globally parametric method. You are not going to accomplish this in SW or AC.
2/6/14 #27: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Good to know. I have a web meeting with Solidworks on Monday and will start a trial. I'll let you know how it goes.
2/6/14 #28: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
The label information is passed to the CAM system by Pathfinder, not using the SolidWorks BOM. It happens automatically when you export toolpaths.
Follow the link to a video about how to draw parametric shelf in SolidWorks (at least this is one way of many).
Parametric Shelf
2/6/14 #29: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Adjusting global variables must be less tedious than adjusting the thickness of each part, every dado and the dimensions of any part that is affected by those changes! Is there an automated way to do this in AutoCAD?
Obviously CV and MV are very powerful solutions for generating case work. But once you get into highly customized work like store fixtures they become challenging. I also don't find that CV (Haven't used MV)produces as good 2D submittal drawings as SW.
Using Driveworksxpress in Solidworks you can capture the design and automate modifications. Changes can be made by simply adjusting set parameters that you have already defined. This creates a new modified copy of the assembly. This is ideal for more repetitive work that still requires some variation.
So for the shop doing a lot of custom work that doesn't fit the case good style of CV or MV then Solidworks with pathfinder is a great solution as you are free to design whatever you want.
Good luck with the meeting Steve. Make sure that they gear things towards your process and answer the questions you need answered.
Richard
2/6/14 #30: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
"Adjusting global variables must be less tedious than adjusting the thickness of each part, every dado and the dimensions of any part that is affected by those changes! Is there an automated way to do this in AutoCAD?"
Dados are extremely rare, for me this is not an issue.
"Using Driveworksxpress in Solidworks you can capture the design and automate modifications."
Is this new? Is it an overlay to SW?
Does it really work well to create global parametrics?
"The label information is passed to the CAM system by Pathfinder, not using the SolidWorks BOM. It happens automatically when you export toolpaths."
So there is no central generation of part numbers?
I could see that would be fine for small volume, but in that case why bother, but for larger volume that is not going to work.
2/6/14 #31: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
"Follow the link to a video about how to draw parametric shelf in SolidWorks (at least this is one way of many)."
That is a far cry from being globally parametric and it is tedious.
It makes sense on a complex store fixture, reception desk, nurses station.
On any thing else the power of global parmetrics with CV or MV is going to trump the customization ability of SW.
2/6/14 #32: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Website: http://www.silverstarindustries.com
It really is easy to control material thickness in SolidWorks. There are a few ways to do it. Not just for dados, but for the overall size of parts, etc. I come from an AutoCAD/Mechanical Desktop background, and I was amazed by it when I started using SolidWorks. I had always thought that Parametrics would not be worth the trouble. The great thing about SolidWorks is that it is only as parametric as you want it to be. You can draw a one off 3D model extremely fast and not worry about any formulas. But for basic material thickness and simple overall size adjustment, it is so easy to do that I use it in almost anything that I design.
Regarding part numbers, Pathfinder allows the user to decide how they want to handle it. Many companies already have a part number system set up in SolidWorks. If you do, then you can use that as your numbering system. If not, Pathfinder will create a unique number for each part for you automatically. This number has the assembly ID number as well as a number for the part. In addition to this number, you can also show the actual name of the part in SolidWorks. Also, you may add custom notes to the part such as edge banding info, etc.
Pathfinder3D
2/6/14 #33: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Solidworks website said: "NOTE: SolidWorks Corporation now includes DriveWorksXpress inside every seat of SolidWorks."
http://www.driveworksxpress.com
2/6/14 #34: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Hi Pat.
Drive works xpress has been around for a few years. It's a free add in for Solidworks. There are higher levels that have more features and are not free. I have a link for a video below if you want to see how it can be used to drive assemblies. Obviously there is a bit of setup involved in creating these type of assemblies but once it's done it's very easy to create new models and you don't have to worry about constraints and parameters conflicting.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gxeWM7pnJSg
I recognize you may not see the value of being able to handle variation in material but often when dealing with laminated products it can be hard to know the exact thickness until sheets are laid up. Inevitably shop drawings and submittals need to be done before that point. Even without dados this can cause an issue with parts fitting if sizes are not modified.
Not really sure what your issue with the part numbering is, could you explain more?
Thanks
Richard
2/6/14 #35: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Re: the video about parametric shelf.
I think that draw was quick. If this was being developed for reuse then the second time would be very quick.
Most of our cabinets are basic with a change in width. I don't see how, once a library is developed the way I want, it would take any time to change the width, the number one alteration we have.
And when an item has more significant change I can't imagine what would be faster. AUTOCAD is definitely not this good with 3D. And when I draw in 2d I don't have linked plan views, elevations, side views, and cross sections that update with the drawing. I can't even get a part name out.
I want a system in which I can draw my standards the way I want them. Then when I have a custom application I draw it the way I want. I may be surprised as I move forward but I think the weakness with SW or Inventor has been the gap closer of a little woodworking specific tools and CAM capabilities. Perhaps that is coming around.
A couple months ago one of the big cabinet software guys came by (I already have the other big one). I said I'm disappointed by the inability to do the custom stuff and none of the "cabinet software" can do truly custom that well or quick. He smiled, "like what?" I gave him the 2d CAD currently on my desk and he went to work. I went back to work while he set out to show me. He couldn't do it.
That drawing is now due to be built. Perhaps I'll see if I can draw it in SW or Inventor and then see how automated of output we can get as a test.
2/7/14 #36: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Sounds like you are sold
2/7/14 #37: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Sold? No. But not dissuaded yet. Usually when I get hopeful about something working my hopes are dashed fairly soon afterward because of a road block. I just haven't hit that road block yet on this inquiry. I'll let you guys know how it turns out even if it is the usual crash and burn.
2/7/14 #38: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Yes please keep us posted Steve and if you need any help with Solidworks or Pathfinder then just ask. It's good to bounce ideas around with other people, sometimes all it takes to get past those roadblocks is a fresh set of eyes.
Good luck and enjoy the new adventure.
Richard
2/7/14 #39: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Website: http://www.shorelineparametrics.com
Yes please Steve, ditto here too. And if you need a hand with flattening parts or complex curves, give a shout.
Rufus
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Click the link below to download the file included with this post.
AMS_Assembly_140205.PDF
2/7/14 #40: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Steve
The devil is in the details. I used SW for about 10 years to about the mid 2000s. I have been using Auto Cad since.
Rufus has different needs than most of us.
It is true that technology changes.
I found it was tedious with SW were the parametrics. The reality is that parametrics get in the way more than they are useful.
Getting the parts out of SW is a pain. It sounds like Pathfinder MAY have fixed this problem.
Placing holes in the parts is a pain, maybe half of the work in SW. The library feature is a way around this but it used to be very hit and miss in that it didn't work half the time.
But to think that SW can compete with software that has many man years of development is foolish.
As far as organizing parts goes if you keep the batch sizes small it is not a problem if you do more volume with multiple jobs you need a central place to issue the numbers from to do this from multiple platforms is akin to building a building with multiple benchmarks.
The reality is that SW will only be good for one offs. The less time you spend on superfluous tasks the better.
Just make sure they actually demonstrate the stuff you do.
2/9/14 #41: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Steve,
The process to get parts from Inventor or Solidworks through SmartLister is very similar. It all depends on the exact version of their software.
What is required (to easily batch process) in each of them is that there is a BOM with the sizes of the length, width, and thickness of each part. The BOM needs to be exported to a text file where the dta can be copied and pasted in to a template file in the SmartLister/Sample Files folder.
You will also need to get the parts in your assembles batch exported to a format that AutoCAD can read. There are free utilities for both that will do it on the older versions that will send out each part to a acis SAT file and the newer one(s) will export a 3d solid in dwg. It really doesn't matter much, as SmartLister has a tool to batch convert acis SAT files to native dwg files on the right-click, context sensitive menu.
Once you have a folder full of dwg files, each file having one part (again, they were batch created with just a few clicks, you load the template csv, now resaved under a new name in the same folder as the dwg files, choose the output type and wait fr the feature recognition to process the all.
1. Export out your BOM csv from Inv or SW.
2. Batch export out all your parts to 3d solid dwg's or acis SAT files using built-in utilities in newer versions of free 3d party apps. for older versions.
2b. If parts exported are acis SAT files, use the SMartlIster utility to batch convert them to DWG's
3.Copy and paste the data from your exported BOM in to the template CSV and save it in the same folder as your dwgs.
Load the csv in SmartLister and process the parts.
2/18/14 #42: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Hi Steve,
Just wondering if you have an update for us?
Richard
2/19/14 #43: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Hi Richard,
I've been out of commission here in Augusta, GA for almost a week due to ice storm and power outage. Just got back to work yesterday. So, I haven't done much since last exchanges.
I do have Solidworks trial on my computer and started an Infinite Skills training course. It seems very similar to what I learned with Autodesk Inventor. Just different interface etc...
The folks at Pathfinder3D sent me a test part that includes most of the features our cabinets might have. I sent them a part designed in AutoCAD and they redrew in Solidworks. They have added to Pathfinder (or are adding) Thermwood as an additional CAM output. The idea is that Pathfinder will output the parts in individual DXF files that can be loaded directly into our Thermwood CNC controller which will nest, automatic tool path, and write the G code.
If this works, it will mean I may be able to bypass the need for a separate CAM software for what the Thermwood is doing. Hopefully today I'll have time to run the part.
I'll get back with updates.
3/14/14 #44: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
I got in this thread a bit late. If you already are comfortable designing in Inventor, RouterCIM is fully prepared and able to take those drawings and turn them into CNC code. Let me know if we can help you. We could even examine drawings that you already have and demo them with RouterCIM.
3/31/14 #45: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
I realize that I came to this thread a little late.
I actually have a buddy who does solidworks designs for on a job by job basis.
He has done some custom parts for me.
This is his website.
Custom Cad
11/25/15 #46: 3D CAD for Cabinet Design and Produ ...
Website: http://prodboard.eu
Hi!
If I understand correctly you need a program-helper for your cabinet business. So, you may have a look at Online 3D kitchen Constructor. Maybe it will be useful.
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Online 3D Kitchen Constructor
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