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Up Grading CNC

4/4/15       
Tom Twark Member

I have been running full size ShopBot since 2007. We cut mainly melamine and Plam panels for commercial casework.
I have been researching newer-better-faster machines for quite sometime and I've have zeroed in on a Biesse Clever. The machine I'm considering is not the high speed version.
What I'm getting is machine with ISO 30 style tool holders, 7 position, aluminum table 5 x 10, with 4 independent zones to maximize vacuum in which ever area it is needed. HSD 12 hp spindle with drill block. It comes with one Becker VLTF 250 pump.
I am going to set this up on single phase power and am leaning towards a PhasePerfect digital phase converter, over a rotary converter.
This is what I've heard through many conversations with various people.
ISO tool holders compromise cut quality when compared to HSK style tool holders. Aluminum table with one pump with will have trouble holding parts. The Phase perfect is about double the cost of a n American Rotary phase converter.
The price point of this setup is max'ing the pocket, but this is still Biesse's entry level set up. It is still miles ahead of the ShopBot set up I've been using.
Any comments or considerations I'm missing would be greatly appreciated.

4/4/15       #3: Up Grading CNC ...
Brian

Forget the iso-30 toolholders. For the way we program that Becker is not going to provide enough volume go for about twice that. That Biesse is a quantum leap over a ShopBot.

4/4/15       #4: Up Grading CNC ...
Maurice

My question to you is what is your price range, at that point we can give you a idea of what other machines are out there that others have run across and some of the features.

Because you can buy a hell of a machine for under 80k, steel frame, HSK spindle, 20 hp vac. Give us a little more information, and the recommendation will pour in to your post.

4/5/15       #5: Up Grading CNC ...
Stewart Member

Hi Tom,
I may not be able to answer a lot of your questions since I am new to cnc and still figuring a lot of things out but I can certainly vouch for the Phase Perfect Converters. It is true that they are expensive upfront (maybe not in the long run, however). Rotarys don't have a long life expectancy. I've been running mine for 7 years now and just bought another one for the cnc. The equipment absolutely loves it. They run very quiet and the "legs" are balanced to within 1% just like they say. No problems whatsoever whether you have one or five tools cutting in and out!

4/5/15       #6: Up Grading CNC ...
Tom Twark Member

The Biesse Klever that I'm considering was quoted at 75k. I Like the way the machine is built and I like What I see in the company as far as engineering, sales, and support. Because I'm running this on single phase power with 100 amp input I'm kinda limiited on "how much" I can run. I've looked at Multicam, anc Cam Master, didn't like what I saw there and looked at Thermwood CS43 but it was just beyond my budget.

4/5/15       #7: Up Grading CNC ...
John Member

I'm interested in your thread for a slightly different reason. I am about to purchase my first cnc. I've Considered shopbot (mostly for ecab link) multicam, camaster, and going slightly higher in the pecking order.(all 220 single phase) (planning phase perfect as well) Here's my question.

After your working with a shopbot. What's your criteria for your new machine. What are you finding operating the shopbot that is making you want upgrade, and why do you feel that you need to step above the multicam camaster level.

Just to be clear I'm not against any of these machines I truly believe they all have their place. I'm just trying to determine what level I should step in at. (determine alot by budget) (and the fact I'm a 1-2 man operation)

4/5/15       #8: Up Grading CNC ...
Paul S

Tom, 3 years ago I also was considering that machine.....The salesmen offered me a free airline ticket with lodging to see the machine in North Carolina....It looked like a fine machine and I'm sure the tech support and training is also very good. I how ever ended up purchasing a Techno HDS atc with 8 tool stations for about 1/2 the price..... it came with a 12HP HDS - 4 zones and the 250 Becker Pump..... The table is not as nice as the Alum one and the material stops are not as nice as the Biesse. But at about half the price I got about 90% of the Biesse. So I went with the Techno..... I someday would like to add a second Vac pump.
As for the phase converters....I have been using a 20 HP phase converter for the last fifteen years and should last me as long as the bearing don't go. The reason some people don't get a long life from them is that there not using a slave motor with the converters.....As for using a rotory phase converter for your CNC.... Do you realize that the AC three phase power goes into a transformer and then from there is converted to DC Power...before its used for the control circuits......I know I have never had any issues and also know of other using a rotary with no issues. What ever you do good luck to you
Paul

4/5/15       #9: Up Grading CNC ...
Tom Twark Member

John, in response to your question about why leave the ShopBot has many reasons. The machine has served me well and has allowed me to make countless jobs that otherwise would have been impossible. If a machine has a life span mine may be close to it. Our production has gone up tremendously and if I keeping pushing it as hard as I do, it is certainly going to need major repairs. I'm a two man shop that has been strong for 20 years. I'm 56 years old and I'm making one last push before...well it's time to hang it up. I would rather start with a new footprint than upgrade something that can only go so far. bigger-faster-newer is the reason I'm exploring.

4/5/15       #10: Up Grading CNC ...
Derrek

Biesse is a great company and make great stuff. I run hundreds of sheets of 4x8 with a single Becker Vlf 250 with no problems, we run small parts with onion skins and final pass to keep part in place

4/7/15       #11: Up Grading CNC ...
Larry

We also are a commercial shop and run on a 5x10 table. Sure wish it was a 5 x 12! Your limiting factor is the power you have? Though you can get by with the small vacuum, you will need to onion skin or tab a lot. That doubles the run time on those parts. I'd go for an HSK spindle.

4/9/15       #12: Up Grading CNC ...
cabinetmaker

Go with what you can afford. You will need more vacuum this is just the way it is don't let anyone bs you. I run a 40hp and return onion skin everything because our chip load is pushing the envelope moving material on the spoil board.

We have 4 Biesse machines and run the shit out of them - in summer its 2 shifts. You have to stay up with maint. An ISO 30 will cut great but you must clean the cones and use taper cleaners in the spindle. I have cut a lot of product with our ISO 30 tool holders. Yes, get the drill block. If you can afford it get the 5x12.

4/10/15       #13: Up Grading CNC ...
Larry James Member

Tom - what software do you plan to use on the new machine? Software cost plays a big role in the overall package price, have you considered that?

4/10/15       #14: Up Grading CNC ...
jerry Member

Remember Biesse is a metric machine doesn't use inches.

4/10/15       #15: Up Grading CNC ...
Larry

It's a sad commentary on this country that we are still on the Imperial system! Says a lot about the political leadership.

4/10/15       #16: Up Grading CNC ...
cabinetmaker

Jerry If you program @ the controller on a Biesse you type in 18P the "P" is the call out for inches in the controller. We rarely stand at the controller and generally draw in inches to match the prints or what a client wants to read and the post handles the rest.

4/17/15       #17: Up Grading CNC ...
Tom Galzin  Member

Website: http://www.newcnc.com

Tom,

It's nice to hear your business is growing and that you will be upgrading your capacity. I recently wrote an article for Woodworking Network about things to consider when investing in CNC. The link is below.

If you would like to talk, send me an email and I will get back to you.

Woodworking Network Link

5/29/15       #18: Up Grading CNC ...
Mike McClaran

Website: http://www.greenbvc.com

Any Biesse Rover can be ran using inches.


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