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GF EnduroVar

7/22/15       
John B Member

Anyone here using General Finishes Endurovar? I bought 2 gallons of gloss and one of dull recently for a couple small projects here in the shop. I've been searching for a waterbourne topcoat finish that I feel comfortable in using for our custom kitchen and bath cabinetry. I like the color tone of this finish and have played with small samples a bit. I first sprayed a cherry wall cabinet that came out great. Next, I sprayed a coat of gloss on a walnut piece (no stain) followed by 2 coats of dull. The first dried ok but then a day went by before the second got sprayed. The sprayed finish acted like there was wax on the surface, beading up and not flowing out. I had sanded with 320 between each coat and removed dust. Since then I have tried a number of sample boards with the same result. Calling GF, was told over 24 hrs between coats can cause this issue, but sanding should take care of it. Short of sanding down to bare wood, it still happens. I've flushed gun with gallons of soapy water, followed by more gallons of clean water,etc. Any other ideas?

7/22/15       #2: GF EnduroVar ...
Bart

I've used it for some floors w/multiple coats and on a couple of small projects with no issues. I use lots of their poly and have for years with good results. The poly is a harder finish I add orange dye to get that solvent look much like the Endurovar. Off the top of my head it sounds/looks like you could have a contamination issue. Or another possible issue could be your coat thickness. Are you spraying it on heavy? WB in general don't like to be sprayed too heavy, multiple thinner coats are the way to go.

7/22/15       #3: GF EnduroVar ...
John Member

EnduroVar is not the easiest thing for me to spray; too light and it doesn't flow out; too heavy and I get orange peel. I've never had the problem you describe, but I always adhere to the recommended recoat time window. Are you sure your air is clean? Is your sandpaper stearate coated or some other coating? That might be a problem.

John

7/22/15       #4: GF EnduroVar ...
Denny J

It's a good product that gives a finish with more of the amber tint you get from oil based finishes. I have sprayed a lot of it and for the most part got excellent results but there were a few times where we would have surface tension issues leading to fish eye and cratering.

One thing to keep in mind is that it is not compatible with their standard line of sanding sealers and only use it for stained wood.

7/23/15       #5: GF EnduroVar ...
arthur grudko

This is just a guess on my part, since I'm not familiar with the actual chemistry of the coating.

They might be using a wax emulsion as a flattening agent. The clue is you sprayed one coat of dull, no problems. It was the second coat of dull that created the problem. Had it been the stearated sandpaper, it would have occurred with the first coat.

You likely did it backwards. Two coats of gloss, then one coat of dull, rather than one coat of gloss then two of dull. This would have avoided the problem and given a coating with greater clarity.

If you wish to avoid stripping, then sand off all of the dull, spray a coat of gloss, then a coat of dull.

I'm surprised that this is happening. There are wax additives that have better intercoat adhesion properties.

7/23/15       #6: GF EnduroVar ...
John B Member

Thanks for the responses. I had a follow up call to GF and a better talk with one of the chemists. He did say this has been a recurring issue sometimes and persoally prefers their clear poly for commercial cabinetry, either with slight tinting of the first sealer coat or a shellac sealer coat followed by the poly. Not the same surface tension issues and a bit more durable. They are sending me some free of charge to try out. I re-sanded the initial project and was able to save it, recoating and it came out ok. Luckily it was a small project, not a large kitchen.

7/24/15       #7: GF EnduroVar ...
al

I tried their flat poly, just foam brushed 4 coats on bare walnut. Next morning I sprayed Fantastic cleaner
on it pretty heavy and let it sit until it evaporated. No problem with finish just cleaned area with damp rag.
On Fantastic bottle it says not to use on varnished surfaces. I have tried Fantastic on another fully cured
WB topcoat and it left area slightly damaged. Also tried Fantastic on solvent CV and nothing happened to it on this finish.
I thought de-waxed shellac like Zinsser seal coat would be weak link in system if used as first coat and have been avoiding using it on bathroom and kitchen cabinets but love it on furniture pieces. If no problem on bathroom cabinets I would be using it. Any comments about using de-waxed shellac?

7/25/15       #8: GF EnduroVar ...
rick morehou Member

what type of Tack Cloth do you use ?

7/25/15       #9: GF EnduroVar ...
John Member

That's an interesting comment from the GF chemist that Enduro Clear Poly is more durable than EnduroVar. That has not been my experience, nor that of some others I know. Clear Poly is MUCH easier to spray than EnduroVar; flows out beautifully whether you spray a light or heavy coat. But it's not nearly as chemically durable as EnduroVar unless they've reformulated it in the last couple of months. I prefer using Clear Poly, and I have for bath vanities over Sealcoat shellac, but when I want maximum chemical durability I use EnduroVar. In my testing, almost nothing damages it. The price difference should tell you something.

John

7/25/15       #10: GF EnduroVar ...
al

From what I was told they have added cross linker to it where in the past you had to add the
cross linker yourself.

7/25/15       #11: GF EnduroVar ...
Denny J

I am pretty sure that I tested some of the first Endurovar to hit the Distributor probably around 2009 and have never had to add an external crosslinker.

I believe it was originally formulated and marketed as a floor coating which is why it is as durable as it is.But by saying clear poly is more durable he may have meant harder and more scratch resistant. The acrylic resins seem to me to be harder than the oil modified resins. The advantage to the oil resins is that they have more flexibility to wood movement that you see in floors.

7/25/15       #12: GF EnduroVar ...
Denny J

The one thing to watch with endurovar is you cannot use it to clear over their pigmented poly. I am not positive but it may not be compatible with their classic or milk paints as well.

Either way it has an amber tone and will yellow more over time which makes it a poor choice for going over pigmented finishes and white woods like Maple, Birch,Hickory and Beech.

On woods like Walnut, Cherry and even Oak the tone of the finish can actually enhance the appearance and look quite impressive.

The guys at GF are great to work with and if you have any questions they are very good at helping to answer any questions you might have.

7/25/15       #13: GF EnduroVar ...
Denny J

GF also has a product called their Enduro Conversion Varnish that does have to be catalyzed. Could this be what some have referenced?

7/25/15       #14: GF EnduroVar ...
al

The regular poly is what I'm referring to not the Endurovar. I did use the Endurovar once on cherry and it came out nice but it does have some yellow in it. The poly is very clear and
I think will work excellent over pigmented white. General told me they are now putting crosslinker in it from the start. I had previously used their poly but had to add the crosslinker myself.

7/26/15       #15: GF EnduroVar ...
John Member

I wonder when (if?) GF started adding cross linker to the Clear Poly. Their tech. data sheet says cross linker can be added, which suggests there is none in it. Also, the cross linker you add only lasts so many hours if you don't use the mix, after which it no longer works as a cross linker. So if they are adding one now, it must be different and they haven't updated their TDS to reflect the change. Count me skeptical. They once told me that Clear Poly has a better UV stabilizer in it than HP Poly. Years later a colleague calls them and they say it has no UV stabilizer and never did. GF makes some great products but getting reliable info. from them is not their strong suit.

Johnm

7/26/15       #16: GF EnduroVar ...
John B Member

As far as a tack cloth I used a slightly damp rag, no tack cloth. Surface was dry when next coat applied. My understanding from their online product description is that Endurovar does not require any additional crosslinker as it is already been crosslinked. ??? I was also under the impression once crosslinked it only lasted for a short time. He was quite adamant that the Endurovar was not as durable and chemical resistant as the poly and most commercial shops used the poly on production kitchen/bath cabinetry. I just got a free gallon yesterday so I will do a little experimenting this week.

7/26/15       #17: GF EnduroVar ...
John Member

John B. if you want to do a fair comparison you need to apply an equal number of coats of EnduroVar and Clear Poly to two pieces of identical wood, and then wait at least 7 days and preferably 3 weeks for them to cure before testing.

John

8/8/15       #18: GF EnduroVar ...
John Member

I did some quick chemical testing on specimens of cherry finished with EnduroVar and Enduro Clear Poly. These specimens were more than 4 months old so they are fully cured. I put a couple of ml of DNA, acetone, and Windex on each specimen and let them sit until they were dry, which took about 4 hours. The looked like what's shown in the first photo. I then wiped them first with a wet paper towel, followed by a dry one. After, the Clear Poly looked like what's shown in the second photo and the EnduroVar in the third photo.

None of the chemicals truly damaged either finish, but the DNA and acetone left a ring or changed the sheen of the Clear Poly, but did nothing to the EnduroVar. Windex, which contains ammonia has proven deadly on many finishes I've tested before, but did nothing to either the Clear Poly or EnduroVar.

I don't know what protocol GF used to conclude Clear Poly has superior durability compared to EnduroVar, but it wasn't in my quick testing. However, it's still really good, superior to many finishes I've tested, including some solvent based varnishes.

John


View higher quality, full size image (640 X 480)


View higher quality, full size image (640 X 480)


View higher quality, full size image (640 X 480)

11/16/15       #19: GF EnduroVar ...
Bob the Painter Member

Website: http://paintrenu.com

I was thinking that spraying Enduro Var over dark latex (in this case it is SW All Surface Enamel tinted to a kind of Expresso or Dark Chocolate) because I felt that the dark color could take the Enduro Var and I would be able to make a softer darker finish harder---I have a couple of HVLP's and am very experiened with the new reformulated High Performance, I originally was going to just tint the Enduro Var with some exterior GF Stain and some tints and then top coat the thing with for Enduro Var but color matches per batch looked too difficult to change and I dropped that. Should I switch back to the HP? I have used Enduro Var only to lock down touch ups to worn cabinets that fell my way. I still might roll some on the bottom cabinets and the island if it turns out that the bead up thing is a problem, but I have seen that with the new HP, and it goes away with sanding and proper thinning. I think, or hope.


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