Total Finishing Supplies

Professional Finishing

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

MLC Polarion and Red Oak

12/29/15       
Leo G

I've got a project that I'm spraying Polarion on Red Oak. I'm not looking for a full fill finish. I just want a nice finish like I would get spraying a conversion varnish.

What I'm getting is a surface that is full of high and low spots and pin holes because of the deep grain of the Oak.

I've tried quite a few different things. So far I haven't gotten past using the sealer. It's properly catalyzed (20oz sealer, 4oz of catalyst) and I add another 1oz of the reducer.

After that didn't work I thinned it to 30% so it would flow into the grain. It basically did the same thing as the 5% thinning. After that I did reducer and retarder (50 50) at 30% and after that I did 30% retarder. Still, without putting on a ridiculous mil thickness it wouldn't flow.

I tried a wet on tack coat and all that does is accentuate the highs and lows of the grain, it won't flow into the low grain areas.

Next I figure on going the opposite way and just keep doing 2 mil wet coatings, let it dry the hour, sand and repeat.

Anyone have any pointers for me? I'm using a Kremlin 10.14 with a 06-114 tip. Liquid 35psi and air 16psi with the trigger pulled. Basically my standard for most clears.

12/30/15       #2: MLC Polarion and Red Oak ...
Paul Snyder  Member

Website: finishing.tips

Leo - I could not find a tech data sheet for this product - it must be new to the market.

Are you using a sanding sealer before the topcoat? That's usually the best way to get a great finish with 2K-PU on wood.

12/30/15       #3: MLC Polarion and Red Oak ...
Leo G  Member

Website: http://www.lrgwood.com

Yes Paul, I am using their sealer.

I have the PI sheets, I'll upload the PDFs if the site lets me.

Click the link below to download the file included with this post.

POLARION_Catalyst_PI_Sheet_C35677_.pdf



Click the link below to download the file included with this post.

POLARION_Clear_Sealer_PI_Sheet_C35579.pdf



Click the link below to download the file included with this post.

POLARION_Satin_Interior_Clear_PI_Sheet_C3557.pdf

12/30/15       #4: MLC Polarion and Red Oak ...
TonyF

LeoG:

Would it help to take and wipe or squeegee the sealer coat into the oak, let dry, sand and spray? This might fill some of the grain and pin holes, while not getting too heavy a build.

Not sure if it would give you the look you want, but a conventional spraying schedule does not seem to be doing that, either.

Just trying to help.
TonyF

12/30/15       #5: MLC Polarion and Red Oak ...
Leo G  Member

Website: http://www.lrgwood.com

I didn't use a squeegee to move it around but I did do something similar.

I sprayed on a 2 mil coat and then took a fine bristled brush that was in a cup of the Polarion retarder and I brushed across the grain and then with the grain to push the sealer into the grain pockets. Then I finished the box coat with another 2-3 mil coat. It looked like it would work, but it didn't.

Currently I am trying a different method. Thinning the Polarion sealer 30% and applying a 2 mil coat. Just enough to wet the wood. It sinks/absorbs in pretty well and has little build. Sand it and apply the sealer at 10% thinned at 2 mil again. This will have a fair amount of build. Sand it back hard and then go to the Polarion top coat, two 2 mil coats sanding between coats.

We'll see if it's acceptable. Since I was just playing with the sealer in the beginning I based the flow on the way the sealer reacts. The top coat seems to have better flow out properties. Hoping this will make it work.

On maple it's 2 seal coats and done, ready for the topcoat. I'm sure I could do one seal coat and 2 top coats. I just hadn't cracked the top coat can at that time.

12/30/15       #6: MLC Polarion and Red Oak ...
Paul Snyder  Member

Website: finishing.tips

Thanks for the data sheets Leo. Unfortunately they don't shed much light on this situation though... the sealer and top coat seem nearly identical according to the description, the viscosity, and the solids content. The VOCs is a little different.

The sealer has a high solids content, even though the viscosity is low, which contributes to the ridged build-up around the pores. Thinning it enough to avoid the build-up reduces the solids content down to the wash-coat thickness - not enough to give you a good base for the top coats. That means you'l have to spray an extra coat or two of thinned sealer which drives up the cost of the finish a lot.

The properties of a good sealer are excellent flow, leveling, adhesion, and sand-ability. The TDS for the sealer doesn't say anything about easy sanding which is unusual, and from your description it sounds like it doesn't flow and level well.

Personally, I'd switch to another product instead of trying to make this one work in this situation. ML Campbell may tweak the formulation over time and get it to work better with ring porous woods or they may simply recommend a different product. For now, the Eurobuild high solids sealer is probably a better choice with oak. If you're open to trying new products, the LBA-38 sealer from Milesi is exceptional.

You should be able to spray one coat of sealer, sand smooth easily, and apply two top coats and get great results consistently. Any extra fussing is not worth the effort/time/money.

1/6/16       #7: MLC Polarion and Red Oak ...
CWK

MLC products are NEVER the best in their class. They cheap out on the grind of their resins. If a good quality PU sealer is the size of sand, the MLC will be the size of gravel. this is why you get pin holes in some finishes and not others.
Ever spray MLC crystal? looks awesome the day you spray it, go back in a couple of weeks. Where did the finish go?

1/12/16       #8: MLC Polarion and Red Oak ...
Joe

Whats the grit sandpaper that you used as a final ? is there a stain involved ?

1/12/16       #9: MLC Polarion and Red Oak ...
Leo G  Member

Website: http://www.lrgwood.com

120 grit, Mirka Gold on a Ceros.

No stain.

5/8/17       #10: MLC Polarion and Red Oak ...
David Kelsh Member

I have recently had similar issues spraying a mahogany top... specs sheets claim sealer and topcoat to be around 30 seconds on the Ford cup... in actuality I was getting 50 secs. I used the reducer and got best results spraying at 23 seconds, holding the gun a little further away than typical and lighter application than usual....noting that "usual" means nothing when talking spray techniques on a thread...
Oh yeah, I also went through LOTS of 320 grit sanding discs to flatten previous "experiment" coats.

Also noticed a 2000 grit abralon pad on a pneumatic orbital (wet sanding) will knock down the gritty feeling left behind from the solvent pockets evaporating.

Much more difficult than spraying MLC Krystal or Duravar


Post a Response
  • Notify me of responses to this thread
  • Subscribe to email updates on this Forum
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)