Cabinet and Millwork Installation

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How crooked is to too much

4/8/17       
Kevin Dunphy

Website: http://kdunphy.com

Where working on a extension brand new .We measured no drywall yet .Now we install the room is 1 inch out it drops less than a ft the other end rises more than a 1 inch did I mention wall out an 1 also
We see this a lot to the point I'm getting sick of installing
Mind you this install came out a amazing but there are issue of trying to make it look straight to the room a post not lining up minor

This is hidden problems sometimes you need the work and your not being tough enough

How do you protect yourself from this ?


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4/8/17       #2: How crooked is to too much ...
D Brown

On site measuring and observation before the job should reveal the majority of what you have to work with before you quote a price to install.Take a level and a transit if need be .You can't change the conditions but you can be aware and prepare for the job so there are fewer surprises .

4/8/17       #3: How crooked is to too much ...
Paul Miller

Website: http://MCCWOODWORKING.COM

That is a situation we all face and you have to handle each job individually. We try to do installations on a time and material basis only, but that doesn't really work either. There are usually budgets that you have to live with. It does look like you did a great job and in the final analysis, that is what really matters.

One thing we never do is to point out these imperfections to the owner. We want the owner to come away feeling his job was perfect.

4/8/17       #4: How crooked is to too much ...
rich c.

Yep, happens to everyone. Working really old houses on stacked stone foundations is even worse. Plenty of accurate measuring devices on the market to make you fully aware of the situation before you ever touch the table saw. I use wide moldings if I can so the taper is not so evident. I always take strips of 1/2" and 3/4" along with the shim shingles for the big gaps.

4/8/17       #5: How crooked is to too much ...
Kevin Dunphy

Website: http://kdunphy.com

What I'm trying to ask I assume on new construction there are tolerances lets say under a 1/2 inch is acceptable over an 1 is considered hidden problems
The customer is running the project has lost control
The ceiling has been taken down 3 times lights where in wrong place not centered losing track .Forgot to mention this was done while cabinets were installed
This install has been dragging out since last fall .
So where doing final touches cleaning boot marks finger prints etc
there is a leak in the roof can you say s----t show. So they take a patch out while where working
As we say here Gong show

So the customer is starting to crack how do I protect myself ?


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4/9/17       #6: How crooked is to too much ...
Steve

Website: http://timberline-online.com

Why is the HO acting as the contractor, unless he IS a contractor? To save money? If so, then he has found out the hard way that he isn't going to.

General Contractors know how to run jobs and smooth problem areas for subs. At least I do.

Good Luck!

4/9/17       #7: How crooked is to too much ...
Kevin Dunphy

Thanks for the feed back I have to go back Tuesday
They have gone through a designer, architect
Of course you worry about the final bill
You are right they are not saving money I talk to HO last week I thought he was going to have a stroke

4/12/17       #8: How crooked is to too much ...
TimG

I just had to laugh out loud, not at your predicament, but been there and done that. Homeowners that havn't a clue are the worst. Next time be sure to include a terms of agreement with your contract which spells out the homeowners responsibilities and yours.

4/15/17       #9: How crooked is to too much ...
Kevin Dunphy

There was more work we did I did drag a little only because the counter arrived last week after 7 months .This beeing in a rock and a hard place
We are finishing 2 kitchen we are enforcing payment on delivery
Should there be cod on delivery and penalty for cancellation of install?


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4/16/17       #10: How crooked is to too much ...
Mark  Member

I feel your pain, sounds like you got an unknowing fool for a client- for new construction the amounts the walls and floors are out is ridiculous. And even more ridiculous is things won't get better with the trend toward using immigrant- both legal and otherwise- workers won't can't read and write english, let alone follow a set of plans. And their 'contractor' bosses who could give a crap less as they drive away in a BMW with a check in their hand.... but , I'm ranting-

I've started to state in my estimates and contracts that I have an expectation of square, level, plumb and true within 1/8" per 5' (and 20' could be an inch out at that spec)- to build and install. If it's found to be more, the contractor, owner and architect will be notified in writing and advised of extra charges for materials and labor.
Most of the time, good contractors smile and say sure, no problem. The ones that balk get tailgate delivery.

Looks like you've done a good job on that install despite conditions, hope you did ok with the pay.

I'm with the others on using a transit- a good one- and a plumb bob (you can't argue with gravity) to check walls in critical areas. It's a war zone out there, be prepared. ;-)

4/16/17       #12: How crooked is to too much ...
Kevin Dunphy

Part of the problem is they installed bath tub before I was finished and crown has 4 pieces
You see these on commercial jobs not knowing the order of things
The contractor told me they have to remove part of a wall where the tile in the shower the glass doors don't line up
Making money here is not an option I lost
See pic my back is sore I had to balance on all four corners of curved bookcase because of bathtub
In are area contractors take on jobs like this with no skill or no how I see it all the time .I figured I wold post and see if I'm alone or is this the industry standard
Where I lost is they scuff up the work not ready storage all workers are pissed off
The worst part the HO tried to blame me for construction delays .I never bad mouthed anyone but the contractor has thrown me under the bus I have to be careful
The HO and the contractor think a 6 inch with a curve is easy and should not take longer than a regular crown .They don't have a general understanding


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4/16/17       #13: How crooked is to too much ...
Adam

Nice pic of the guy doing his thing with the crown. One of my buddies was doing the same thing. Putting up crown one foot on a ladder the other foot on a marble vanity top.

Crack. He broke the $2000 top. Not a good day.

4/16/17       #14: How crooked is to too much ...
Mark  Member

Unless the contractor who threw you under the bus gives you a lot of work, I'd make them tailgate delivery only from now forward. If he doesn't like it, tell him you just don't have the time to devote to installing his jobs. And try to get a final payment from the client, and politely excuse yourself from the job.
Really, by the looks of the pics, your work is better than the mutts deserve.
Modify your contracts too.

5/1/17       #15: How crooked is to too much ...
chipbored

Your work is great. Sorry to hear your having so many troubles.

The workshop is a laboratory, the worksite is a battlefield! Arm yourself with the right weapons. Get a laser distance measurer and a laser level. At your site measure check plumb of all walls. Laser measure top and bottom, front and back of opening. Then you can build joinery allowing for what the walls are doing, (within reason, I know it's not always that simple.) You would have known about this out of plumb and level issue before you started and could have alerted whoever is response to fix it or live with the consequences. Just as we are expected to work within tolerances, we expect a site that allows us to achieve this.

Sorry if this is rude but I think it's relevant. If that is you or one of your guys doing that installation. Ditch the tracksuit pants, get some proper work pants, boots and company branded polos and jumpers. If you look serious about what your doing, you will be taken seriously. If you went to a lawyer and he was sitting behind his desk in running shorts and singlet I don't think you would want him to represent you in court. You want that guy in a sharp as s&#t Italian suit, because that guys gets things done......well. Just because we do dirty work, doesn't mean we can't present ourselves well.

Prevention is better than the cure, you would have been better not doing this job. Make sure you learn the lesson of reading customers, this takes time and getting kicked in the guts a few times. I'm still learning this lesson to this day and always will, but I can now avoid the issues that came up in the early days.

I think the idea someone wrote about site expectations within the contract is great. At best it means you arrive at a clean site with good levels and all things considered, at worst you have a piece of paper to wave in someones face and say call me when the site is ready and you have paid the callout fee.

Cash is King. Your business depends on it. If you are getting mucked around on site AND not getting paid your candle is burning from both ends. Walk off site until your payments are up to date.

If this HO didn't do due diligence on possibly the biggest and most perilous investment in his/her life it's on him. I feel for them, but it's on them.

5/6/17       #16: How crooked is to too much ...
Kevin Dunphy

Thanks for the feed back .The problem with crooked house is safety you have wet snow conditions here lots of weight .Yet the HO is so focused on finishing work that by time cabinet people arrive there there frustrated and take it out on us .Its not like the TV shows.
I'm starting to get busy where in the past I let things go hopping for more work.I want to turn a page and put in my contract over a 1/2 inch out will be deemed extra work.
If anybody has a sample contract who have been down this road e-mail me at kdwood@eastlink.ca
Also I was installing upper cabinets last Friday I left 2 inch gap for the wall I barely got the cabinet in .The wall was out 3 inches over a 8 ft span .Its hard to catch everything on a site visit I missed this I measure but in my wildest dream i would never have though 3 inches
As for the bathtub its fiberglass. just showing adding the bathtub early cost me a huge amount of time .The HO doesn't even realize if I had an accident he is responsible as general contractor
When you say tailgate delivery I assume you mean cod does this work or they try to hold back ?

6/17/17       #17: How crooked is to too much ...
Larry

You are not alone. We are going through this sort of thing on a hospital remodel job. Job is behind schedule, contractor totally gave up on the phases that were in the contracts. Now it is just a scattered mess. There have been 256 change orders so far, luckily not all of them affect our part. Owners are complaining about costs but continue to make changes. Some of our retainage is now out nearly a year!


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