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High speed moulder for S4S planing

2/22/14       
Latif TOKUR Member

Website: http://www.tokur.com

We are currently running 3 Weinig Profimats. To become more efficient and fast, we are thinking to buy a 200-250 fpm high speed moulder. We will only run S4S planing with the new moulder.
-Will it be better to look for moulders with jointed tools or hydro lock tools?
-If we choose hydro lock tools, what will be the downsides considering we will run it for S4S only?
-Will only 5 spindles be enough for S4S planing or will it better to have a second spindle on each side to improve the surface quality for high speed planing?

2/23/14       #2: High speed moulder for S4S planing ...
Russ

Website: http://www.mirror-reflections.com

Great questions, its nice to see you doing your homework before your purchase.

Lets tackle the first question, you say you have three Weinig moulders, I will assume you running 6000rpm's about 30 feet per minute per each moulder or 1800 lf per hour and obtain 16 knife marks per inch which is pretty standard, this scenario is netting you 90 lineal feet per minute three machines combined.

If you go with jointed, you can do this but you will need hydro lock cutter heads to be able to joint properly and material handling machinery to feed the machine at speeds 90fpm or over if you had 16'ers
A six wing cutter head would net you 180 feet per minute, basically the math is this,
30 feet per minute per knife finishing.
The high speed jointed machines are slowly fading in sales, there are still many of these in production today doing a great job.

The new approach in moulding machinery seems to be higher rpms and smaller (HSK) tooling where the spindle is the cutter head, still single knife finish but faster rpms.

An 8000 rpm machine would net you 42 feet per minute, which would be 12' increase per minute or 720' per hour, netting 2520 lf per hour per machine

A 1000 rpm machine would net you 54 feet per minute which would be a 24' increase per minute or 1440 per hour netting 3240 per hour per machine

A 12,000 rpm machine would double your current output of one machine to 3600 lf per hour at 16 knife marks per inch.

You would need no material handling on any of these machines unless you were feed short material lengths.

Jointed machine are great if properly maintained and the operators receive proper training, but material handling is a must if you need those speeds you mentioned.

All I have quoted is based off of 16 knife marks per inch, speeds can vary or increase if you sand the finish products eliminating the knife marks.

I have attached an article on knife marks per inch to help you see the correlation between rpm and feed speeds on moulders.

Great question!

http://http://www.mirror-reflections.com/information/moulding_knife_marks.php

2/23/14       #3: High speed moulder for S4S planing ...
Latif TOKUR Member

Website: http://www.tokur.com

Your estimated numbers for our current case is correct Russ. I am also aware that we must install auto infeed and outfeed tables in the case we purchase a high speed moulder making 200fpm. Sorry for the mistake I made, I should ask;

- "will it better to choose moulder with powerlock tools or hydrolock tools, considering we will make S4S only".

Another question is:

- We will do S4S only with the new moulder; so will a 5 spindle moulder be enough for us or will it be better to add an extra spindle on each side so the surfaces get perfect with the help of double machining?

I am also aware that the tools should be also jointed for both choices in order to achieve 200fpm speed.

2/23/14       #5: High speed moulder for S4S planing ...
Russ

Website: http://www.mirror-reflections.com

The choice of Power lock or Hydro lock is ultimately yours, my effort here is only to help you better understand what is needed for different applications.

As for the number of heads I would always favor a six spindle (two top heads) over a 5 spindle machine any day, but its not my money, that's a chunk of change that needs to be balanced on the scale when making your decision of what application best fits your needs.

Best of luck to you in your decision, investigate lots of options, in the end the decision will be very easy and you will fully understand exactly what is best for you.

2/23/14       #6: High speed moulder for S4S planing ...
Latif TOKUR Member

Website: http://www.tokur.com

Thanks a lot for the help Russ. I think we'd better choose moulder with jointed power lock tools. There are machines claimed to satisfy 200 fpm speed with that composition.

Another question: Do you recommend steel knurled in feed rollers instead of normal steel tooth rollers for to reduce the waste? Our material to be planed in the moulder is coming from Raimann gang rip saw and the surface quality is pretty good. The tooth depth with the conventional steel roller is abt. 1,5mm, whereas it is 0,5mm with the knurled one. We can save 5% material that way if the knurled rollers work fine for us.

2/23/14       #8: High speed moulder for S4S planing ...
Russ

Website: http://www.mirror-reflections.com

In my opinion I would stay with the regular feed rollers, they would give you a superior pull power thru the machinery.

The knurled roller are designed for those folks who don't have enough wood to machine off to get rid of the feed roller marks, they don't have as much grip into the wood especially on the ultra hard woods 1/32 penetration as compared to 1/8" on the regular feed rollers, but again its your choice, this is just my opinion.
I hope that helps
All the best
Russ @ MR

2/23/14       #9: High speed moulder for S4S planing ...
Latif TOKUR Member

Website: http://www.tokur.com

Russ, do you have any experience with "Weinig Spiral Insert Hydo Heads" ?

http://www.weinigusa.com/cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_8_10

C
onsidering we will only make S4S planing, these tools might work well with a hydro lock moulder. The webpage says it is for "non-jointed applications", so I guess jointing won't be necessary for that. Do you think so?

Thnx for the support in advance.

2/23/14       #11: High speed moulder for S4S planing ...
Russ

Website: http://www.mirror-reflections.com

Yes I have experience with that type of tooling, but as stated non jointed not for high speed applications.

The Weinig tooling department would be able to help you with solutions when you decide which machine best fits your needs.


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